Memorizing notes of the first 12 frets...

[Cecil6243]

Originally Posted by Nama Ensou

Yes, I memorized the keyboard. Nice being able to type without having to look at the keys. Little bit different too, playing the guitar and typing.

Are you sure we are talking about the same thing? I too can also type without looking at the keys, but if someone asked me to reproduce the following on a paper by memory I couldn't do it -- except maybe the top row and a few letters. And I don't see the need to learn to type that way either. Apparently no one else does, or we would have learned to type that way.

[dhalbert]

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

But who memorizes a computer keyboard, but yet our fingers find the right keys by exercises and drills we did when we first learned right?

This is an excellent analogy. When I took typing, we had drills with words that covered the new keys we were learning and the keys we already knew. It was not just "here's where the T key is". The idea was to inculcate muscle memory. Any learn-to-type computer program takes the same approach.

When I learned piano at an early age, I learned to read music notation and learned the correspondence between the note on paper and the note on the keyboard by playing simple songs and exercises. Learning a note was done in context.

I have learned (some) notes on the fretboard in the same way. I can read notation, so I have used the exercises in Leavitt's "A Modern Method for Guitar". D on the B string was the first such note I learned that was not an open string.

I would encourage anyone wanting to learn the fretboard for melodic purposes to take some time to learn standard music notation, if only to be able to follow the melody on a lead sheet or similar. If you can find notation for simple songs you already know, that will help a lot. Then you will pick up the muscle memory for picking out notes, not only the position, but also which finger to use, and how to choose fingering to move smoothly between notes.

If standard notation is a stumbling block for you, and you learn better by ear, then at least name the notes in the familiar melody so you can acquire the muscle memory.

If melody is not your thing but chords are, then play familiar chords and deconstruct them into notes. Vary the chord, say from major to minor, and see which fingers move where. Again, it's context, not just memorization.

Learning notes in the context of real music, to me, is the motivation.

[hatamoto]

Originally Posted by Andyrondack

? How do you know what the intervals are if you don't know what the notes are?

Simply by knowing the major scale, the root reference and getting familiar with how the interval sound relative to the root note from the major scale. Let's say I take the Cmajor scale, from the 8th fret lowest E string. I know that perfect 4th is directly below that string, I know major 3rd is the string below and one fret behind (kinda like G major open chord shape), I know that perfect 5th is power chord position, to get the octave, count 2 strings down from root to reach the D string then move 2 steps up to the right, major 7th is half step below, etc.

I'm still getting familiar with how the intervals sound relative to the root but getting there. Not 100% yet though, but all I need is a reference root note and work out the interval sound from the root, then I apply that to whatever scale position I'm in. With this method, I think knowing the actual note of the root note is a must, and I've worked that out at least.

I find that memorizing notes is simply way too much information. Intervals is how I was taught and I find it much more manageable since it allows me to chunk information and apply to whatever scale or key I'm in.

I'm very familiar with the major scale sound (do re mi fa so la ti do) because of piano lessons as a kid so all I need to know is what key I'm in and take it from there.

Then with modes, it's simply just altering the intervals a bit from the major scale. Take Lydian for example, it has a raised 4th, so all I do is play the 4th interval one semitone above, or mixolydian with a 7th degree half step below.

And lastly, when I figure out chords, I take those intervals. Major chord is always the 135 sound, minor with a flat 3. Major 7 chord is 1357 etc. As long as I can play whatever combination they are in (531, 315, 135, 1357, 7351, 7153, etc) then I've pretty much figured out the chord . Then it's all a matter of knowing what kind of inversion they are classified as. Same concept for extended chords like 6ths, 11ths 13ths. I'm not too familiar with diminished, add and sus chords yet, I've just memorized a few chord shapes and inversions for those.

From there it's simply just getting familiar with the patterns. I'm very visual and pattern based and I've realized that playing those intervals as whether as chords or scales just has all the same patterns repeated over and over. This makes learning much less daunting for me. Sharps and flats then kinda become irrelevant because ultimately if I want to harmonize, then the pattern is really all the same.

Then I had this epiphany, melody is really just a combination of all those 7 intervals arranged in a certain way. It was a big aha moment for me. So it led me to get better at phrasing and appreciating the space between the notes. I then played the piano that's sitting in the house that I used to play on as a kid, and everything made so much more sense. Nowadays, less is more!

Once this becomes second nature to me, then I'll probably memorize the notes. If I need to do everything at once, it will be impossible for me. Too much information.


For me the magic formula has been this

1. Root (Ionian)-Major
2. Major 2nd (Dorian) -minor
3. Major 3rd (Phryigian)- minor
4. Perfect 4th (Lydian) -major
5. Perfect 5th (Mixolydian)-major
6. Major 6th (Aeolian)-minor
7. Major 7th (Locrian)-Diminished
8. Octave

[Nama Ensou]

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

Memorizing notes of the first 12 frets... What worked best for you?

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

Are you sure we are talking about the same thing? I too can also type without looking at the keys, but if someone asked me to reproduce the following on a paper by memory I couldn't do it -- except maybe the top row and a few letters. And I don't see the need to learn to type that way either. Apparently no one else does, or we would have learned to type that way.

Are you sure you're the same guy who started this thread?

You can do the same thing on both the guitar as you can on the keyboard, and it's not as impossible as you seem to imply, but more the the point; why would you care about even trying if you think it's unimportant to learn anything other than intervals? It's almost as if you asked for input for something that you don't even find helpful, important or possible.

[tbirdman]

Start slow. memorize the 6th string then you will have the first string. First start by memorizing the open strings and then the 3, 5 and 7 fret. GAB Goat Ate Bags. The next string 3,5 and 7 fret is CDE cats dogs and elephants. Next two strings are a repeat of the first two string just shifted down two frets started on the 5th with GAB and CDE. Bask to the 6 string surround the 9th fret is CD Charlie Daniels. Next string id FG Fabulous Girls. You can do this all in less than a week and use Justin note finder app as a reinforcer.

[rllink]

How typewriter keys got into the discussion and what it has to do with anything, you might not be able to draw a diagram of a keyboard, but at one time you knew which letter went with which key. You didn't learn to type by guess and by golly.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Never bothered with that specifically.

Hi Derek
When I taught, I had the students first memorize the names of the notes on the dots up the fingerboard of a single string per week - a full octave. Strings 1 & 6 were two-for-the-price-of-one. In 5 weeks they knew the names of the dots on each string for a full octave.

All of what follows they learned without paper, just rote memorization and playing exercises together with me at the start of every lesson (my lessons were a full hour for beginners and intermediate players).

Then after the dots for each string were memorized, we filled in the blanks (still using the full octave of the fingerboard) chromatically one string per week.

I taught them the formula for building and playing a major scale linearly up the neck.

Root-whole-whole-whole-half-step Whole-Whole-half. They played these up the neck from open to 12th fret, & they learned the in-between-the-dot note names…one string per week. They had to play them and recite note names.

Then they began learning major scales for keys of E, G, A, C, and D in the open position (frets open-4th fret) across the fingerboard. They had to recite the note names while they played scales, and they had to play each scale perfectly 10 times, in proper rhythm, for me before being allowed to speed up or start a new scale.

They also had to be able to call out the scale position in arabic numerals 1-8 (as opposed to Do-Re-Mi etc) while playing. We always played them together in unison, octaves, and in parallel 3rds.

We learned first G scale, then C scale, D scale…(both in standard and Dropped D), and they had to recite note posiitions out loud while playing. Then we added the E and A scales a week at a time. Those 5 were the only scales I made them pursue since they are the main keys guitarists play in regularly.

I about 2 months they were conversant with the names and position of the notes up the neck, and across the fingerboard. They could play scales fluidly. This is much more musical than memorization.

Then we started using the scales to play etudes.

My intermediate students were pretty conversant playing scales, intervals, and arpeggios in about 6 months time…and we only spent 10 minutes of a one hour lesson on this.

For the remainder of the lesson times, we focused on playing songs, finger-style exercises/patterns, chord progressions and learning/rehearsing two or three songs they were going to play at our monthly guitar society meetings. I took them to guitar meetings and most of them played duets with me about 3-4 times a year (without chart or scores) for all the attendees…usually 25-30 other players. They learned to play in 'public' with very supportive players encouraging them.

[teson1]

I've just discussed this with my teacher, who pointed out that just based on the standard tuning we already know a lot of the notes on the fretboard. (Thanks Michael!)

Standard tuning is EADGBE
1. Open strings : EADGBE (trust you know that by heart )
2. Open note is also one string down 5th fret (except B is one fret less/4th fret G string)

PHP Code:

  Fret
  1   3   5   7   9     12
E|-|-|-|-|A|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
B|-|-|-|-|E|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
G|-|-|-|B|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
D|-|-|-|-|G|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
A|-|-|-|-|D|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
E|-|-|-|-|A|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| 


3. Open note one Octave up = 12th fret
4. Open note one Octave up = 7th fret one string up (except B string)
5. Open note one Octave up = 2nd fret two strings up (except B/E string three frets up)

PHP Code:

  1   3   5   7   9     12
E|-|-|G|-|-|-|B|-|-|-|-|E|
B|-|-|D|-|-|-|-|G|-|-|-|B|
G|-|A|-|-|-|-|D|-|-|-|-|G|
D|-|E|-|-|-|-|A|-|-|-|-|D|
A|-|-|-|-|-|-|E|-|-|-|-|A|
E|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|E| 


6. Learn Low E string (6th) by heart at least (better 5th as well)
7. High E string (1st) = low E string (6th)

PHP Code:

  1   3   5   7   9     12
E|F|-|G|-|A|-|B|C|-|D|-|E|
B|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
G|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
D|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
A|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
E|F|-|G|-|A|-|B|C|-|D|-|E| 


-> Put it all together and you know a lot of the notes on the fretboard already (mostly just C and F missing)...

PHP Code:

  1   3   5   7   9     12
E|F|-|G|-|A|-|B|C|-|D|-|E|
B|-|-|D|-|E|-|-|G|-|-|-|B|
G|-|A|-|B|-|-|D|-|-|-|-|G|
D|-|E|-|-|G|-|A|-|-|-|-|D|
A|-|-|-|-|D|-|E|-|-|-|-|A|
E|F|-|G|-|A|-|B|C|-|D|-|E| 


The notes won't come by heart at this point, but I found it helps to figure out notes/navigate the fretboard.

Gunter

[teson1]

Another comment I found useful :
If you're thinking in intervals it's helpful to memorize how intervals on the same fret relate :
Mostly (5)-1-4-7b, with notes moving up one fret on the 1st and 2nd string :

PHP Code:

|--|-|-|  |--|-|-|  |--|--|-|-|  |--|7b|-|1|
|--|-|-|  |--|-|-|  |--|7b|-|1|  |--|4 |-|-|
|--|-|-|  |7b|-|1|  |4 |--|-|-|  |1 |--|-|-|
|7b|-|1|  |4 |-|-|  |1 |--|-|-|  |5 |--|-|-|
|4 |-|-|  |1 |-|-|  |5 |--|-|-|  |--|--|-|-|
|1 |-|-|  |5 |-|-|  |- |--|-|-|  |--|--|-|-| 


This helps to quickly figure out what intervals are in that chord you're just playing once you've figured out the root (e.g. minor third is two frets left of 4).

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by hatamoto

Simply by knowing the major scale, the root reference and getting familiar with how the interval sound relative to the root note from the major scale. Let's say I take the Cmajor scale, from the 8th fret lowest E string. I know that perfect 4th is directly below that string, I know major 3rd is the string below and one fret behind (kinda like G major open chord shape), I know that perfect 5th is power chord position, to get the octave, count 2 strings down from root to reach the D string then move 2 steps up to the right, major 7th is half step below, etc.

I'm still getting familiar with how the intervals sound relative to the root but getting there. Not 100% yet though, but all I need is a reference root note and work out the interval sound from the root, then I apply that to whatever scale position I'm in. With this method, I think knowing the actual note of the root note is a must, and I've worked that out at least.

I find that memorizing notes is simply way too much information. Intervals is how I was taught and I find it much more manageable since it allows me to chunk information and apply to whatever scale or key I'm in.

I'm very familiar with the major scale sound (do re mi fa so la ti do) because of piano lessons as a kid so all I need to know is what key I'm in and take it from there.

Then with modes, it's simply just altering the intervals a bit from the major scale. Take Lydian for example, it has a raised 4th, so all I do is play the 4th interval one semitone above, or mixolydian with a 7th degree half step below.

And lastly, when I figure out chords, I take those intervals. Major chord is always the 135 sound, minor with a flat 3. Major 7 chord is 1357 etc. As long as I can play whatever combination they are in (531, 315, 135, 1357, 7351, 7153, etc) then I've pretty much figured out the chord . Then it's all a matter of knowing what kind of inversion they are classified as. Same concept for extended chords like 6ths, 11ths 13ths. I'm not too familiar with diminished, add and sus chords yet, I've just memorized a few chord shapes and inversions for those.

From there it's simply just getting familiar with the patterns. I'm very visual and pattern based and I've realized that playing those intervals as whether as chords or scales just has all the same patterns repeated over and over. This makes learning much less daunting for me. Sharps and flats then kinda become irrelevant because ultimately if I want to harmonize, then the pattern is really all the same.

Then I had this epiphany, melody is really just a combination of all those 7 intervals arranged in a certain way. It was a big aha moment for me. So it led me to get better at phrasing and appreciating the space between the notes. I then played the piano that's sitting in the house that I used to play on as a kid, and everything made so much more sense. Nowadays, less is more!

Once this becomes second nature to me, then I'll probably memorize the notes. If I need to do everything at once, it will be impossible for me. Too much information.


For me the magic formula has been this

1. Root (Ionian)-Major
2. Major 2nd (Dorian) -minor
3. Major 3rd (Phryigian)- minor
4. Perfect 4th (Lydian) -major
5. Perfect 5th (Mixolydian)-major
6. Major 6th (Aeolian)-minor
7. Major 7th (Locrian)-Diminished
8. Octave

Well yes that's a great way to understand the relationships between notes on the fretboard, that's how I learned my way around but how do you know where to find your starting note (C) if you don't know where the note is? How will you work out the same relationships for E if you don't know where E is? likewise D, F or any other note? If you know where to find them in the first place then you know where the notes are.

[Cecil6243]

Originally Posted by Nama Ensou

Are you sure you're the same guy who started this thread?

You can do the same thing on both the guitar as you can on the keyboard, and it's not as impossible as you seem to imply, but more the the point; why would you care about even trying if you think it's unimportant to learn anything other than intervals? It's almost as if you asked for input for something that you don't even find helpful, important or possible.

I think you misunderstood my post and intent. And I never dissed intervals or said it was unimportant.

I merely indicated I wondered if we were taking about two different things when it came to learning the keys on a typewriter.

My apologies if I offended you.

[hatamoto]

Originally Posted by Andyrondack

Well yes that's a great way to understand the relationships between notes on the fretboard, that's how I learned my way around but how do you know where to find your starting note (C) if you don't know where the note is? How will you work out the same relationships for E if you don't know where E is? likewise D, F or any other note? If you know where to find them in the first place then you know where the notes are.

I only memorized the easiest roots in the beginning, like E, A, G, and only on the low 6th string. Every now and then I would just a remember a random note simply through playing. Then when I learned CAGED as a way of ascending bar chords in the fretboard, I was able to learn other notes like B, F, C etc. Beyond that, I was just hopping around aimlessly. I didn't spend time at all reciting and memorizing notes as I played.

When I learned intervals and triads, I started to connect the dots to see repeating patterns and pretty much used a combination of all three (CAGED, intervals and triads) to know where I am.

So yeah, in the beginning a little memorization, but I haven't actually memorized the fretboard and know note by note like a map. I can only get to a specific note through muscle memory or some kind of deduction based on concepts I know.

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by hatamoto

I only memorized the easiest roots in the beginning, like E, A, G, and only on the low 6th string. Every now and then I would just a remember a random note simply through playing. Then when I learned CAGED as a way of ascending bar chords in the fretboard, I was able to learn other notes like B, F, C etc. Beyond that, I was just hopping around aimlessly. I didn't spend time at all reciting and memorizing notes as I played.

When I learned intervals and triads, I started to connect the dots to see repeating patterns and pretty much used a combination of all three (CAGED, intervals and triads) to know where I am.

So yeah, in the beginning a little memorization, but I haven't actually memorized the fretboard and know note by note like a map. I can only get to a specific note through muscle memory or some kind of deduction based on concepts I know.

Well I think that's an approach which will serve you very well when improvising, jamming and making up your own music, when I play I am allways aware of which scale degree (same thing as interval) I am playing , some times I play from simple notation and for that I learned where the notes are as I needed them to play that tune, but like you I never sat down and played scales or exercises to memorise the names of notes, (as I had to with piano lessons )

[hatamoto]

Originally Posted by Andyrondack

Well I think that's an approach which will serve you very well when improvising, jamming and making up your own music, when I play I am allways aware of which scale degree (same thing as interval) I am playing , some times I play from simple notation and for that I learned where the notes are as I needed them to play that tune, but like you I never sat down and played scales or exercises to memorise the names of notes, (as I had to with piano lessons )

That's true, and I actually learned the concepts that I know now because that's what I wanted to be able to do, like make up my own stuff, jam, improvise and be melodic. Still learning.

It's a never ending road and I'm sure I'll come back and re-learn some things that I skipped.

When I did piano lessons I learned do re mi instead of note names.

[Nama Ensou]

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

I think you misunderstood my post and intent. And I never dissed intervals or said it was unimportant.

I merely indicated I wondered if we were taking about two different things when it came to learning the keys on a typewriter.

The more you intrinsically understand the tool you're using, the more freedom you'll gain was my only point and it seemed a little confusing that you didn't see the parallel to the extent of even suggesting that there was little to no value in knowing all of them.

I'm still in the category of knowing certain notes anywhere on the neck all the way up to the 24th fret, and then having ones that I have to work from the known point to determine which note I'm on, or going to. Laziness is one of the reasons for this, and my overconfidence in a good (not infallible) intervallic sense. One of the reasons I always sign in to any thread on fretboard memorization is that it at least gets me thinking about it and I like some of the suggestions put forth too.