Pentatonic scale realisation

[Mr. Jelly]

Originally Posted by Winfielder

Or are you saying you switch back and forth between G minor pentatonic and G major pentatonic?

This is what he is saying I believe. But you need to listen to what you are playing and phrase it to make sense. Running scales will not work. Between using this trick and throwing in some odd notes here and there you pretty much find you can play any note on the fretboard and make it work.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by Winfielder

Which minor key? Are you talking about the relative minor of key X, or are you talking about X minor?

For example, let's say we're in the key of G and the I-IV-V is G-C-D.

Are you saying you switch back and forth between the relative minor pentatonic (Em) and G major pentatonic? (if so, what's the difference in sound, since they're the same scale?)

Or are you saying you switch back and forth between G minor pentatonic and G major pentatonic?

(If anyone else has insight into this question, please chime in. I'm at an intermediate stage where learning the answers to a few questions like these can help me make major strides in my playing.)

I didn’t write that, but on songs / progressions that are friendly to both, I’ll play both the major and minor pentatonic of the SAME KEY, not the major and relative minor. A great progression to do this with is Nobody Knows You (When You’re Down and Out). Clapton is all over both the major and minor C pentatonic and it’s really easy to move between them - almost every note from both fits most of the time. A thing I used to practice was treating it as a discussion or argument between a man and a woman, the major scale usually being the woman’s voice and the minor being the guy’s. Have one of them say something, and then the other respond, moving back and forth, call and response. But there are places where a couple notes from the major pentatonic will fit in with a solo that’s mostly being done in the minor pentatonic. Over time you start to get it by feel. Clapton and BB King are / were both almost exclusively pentatonic players, both being phenomenal at mixing and matching them...

-Ray

[Silly Moustache]

In my humble experience when soloing, you can use the notes in the major scale, the major and minir pentatonic and sneak in some chromatic notes as transients.

If it sounds ok, it is ok.

[Winfielder]

Thank you for the insights!

[Robin, Wales]

Firstly. I don’t know how accomplished a musician you are so I apologise if my comments are well below where you are at. I have read through this thread and understand very little of it! But this post leaped out at me and I though it was worth investigating.

Originally Posted by Kevin G String

I've heard a number of these esteemed session men say that if you have to think about which note to play, it's already too late. Wow. I suppose that is more important in their world than mine! ;o)

OK, I’m sitting here thinking “But isn’t this a basic skill for playing guitar?”. I returned to guitar playing after a long gap only a couple of years ago, and I’m playing in a different style and genera (bluegrass/Americana) than I did when I was a teenager (rock and roll on an electric). So I’m basically a beginner of sorts although I do play other instruments.

I don’t knowingly play any scales or practice any scales on guitar. And I certainly couldn’t tell you the notes I was playing on the fretboard without working it out. I play in the style of musicians like Doc Watson, Tim O’Brien, Townes van Zandt, Jonathan Byrd and the like. I listen to their records, hear their intros, lead lines, licks, fills and rhythm patterns and copy them. I have to say that if I was going to learn some blues pieces or jazz pieces then I’d follow the same approach – listen to the records over and over and find those sounds on my guitar; which gets easier and easier over time. I do also use YouTube so I can see each musician’s approach – I look at the way they sit or stand, the way they hold their guitar, how their arms, hands and fingers move while picking, how they hold the neck and shape their chords – all big picture stuff first before going down to the detail. I don’t think in terms of notes, scales and chords but in sounds and movements.

Playing guitar is a physical act with an auditory feedback loop. It is a kinaesthetic / auditory / kinaesthetic virtuous circle. The process is too fast to be cognitively filtered – so I believe my practice should be aiming to remove the cognitive as quickly as possibly and drive the feedback loop into the non-conscious. The aim of practicing scales (if that’s what you do) is surely to drive that movement/sound/movement/sound loop into the non-conscious so they become one and are non-consciously triggered while playing.

I don’t think this is an advanced process; it is a basic building block in playing guitar. I suppose it is what is commonly meant by the term “playing by ear” and is something that is taught and practiced (rather than being innate). However, it may be counter to some peoples' primary learning preference and so they are less likely to pay attention to it – and therefore practice it less.

I think someone else in an earlier post said something along the lines of "listen, copy, listen, copy - repeat". That way you'd have lots of building blocks hidden away in your non-conscious that would just be there to "come out" as you play. Even at my basic playing stage of progress I have licks by Doc Watson, Tim O'Brien and the like that just "come out" when I'm playing - I don't think about using them, they are just there when the music seems to need them!

[Mr. Jelly]

Robin - I take it to be a bit of an overstatement. Yes some thought is required. It's more like once you are in the ball park and on first base you instinctively know where 2nd and 3rd base are without having to stop and think about it.

[Kevin G String]

Thanks guys. Appreciate you input. I realise that I have never really 'listened' to music. I'm sure I have attention deficit disorder. I'm beginning to listen to music and have starting listening to my playing. I beginning to hear intervals, or the sound quality of them. My triad mapping/memorisation quest is helping with the listening thing.

The other thing is that I can get caught up in the notes think I neglect the time between the notes. I'm finding you need to be a bit off for it to sound like proper music. I suppose that is the premise of being in the pocket. Close, but not perfectly on the beat. Watched a load of videos on pocket, I've yet to come across someone who can explain it and demonstrate it. I found watching drummers was very useful.

[Robin, Wales]

"Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I don't like that attitude. I can assure them it is much more serious than that." Bill Shankly.

Replace "football" with "timing" and you get to how you want to focus your attention when playing music.

When I'm learning a new tune on dulcimer or guitar I start with the timing. How does the tune feel. I clap along to it and tap out the rhythm and melody phrases. Only once I have the feel of a piece will I start on the chords and notes.

Being in the pocket: Even if you have never played squash or golf, I could take you to a squash court or golf course and you could spot the difference between a beginner and a professional simply and subliminally by the way they move.

Playing guitar is a physical act. Knowing something isn't knowledge until it is in the muscle and producing an end result. How and when you physically strike or pluck the strings is what produces your sound. And the miriad of nuance and subtlety of that process is where to focus your attention.

Being able to play the melody of Amazing Grace simply, with no embellishments, just one note at a time and have your listeners carried along by its underlying beautiful slow waltz - now that's being in the pocket!

[rllink]

Something to add to the discussion, I think that playing scales has benefits beyond just the notes. There is learning how to move the fingers up and down and across the fretboard. Also the timing of the notes it a big factor in how they come out sounding. Those need to be considered when playing them as well.

[rwhitney]

A fresh approach to using pentatonic scales is to limit the construction of your three and four-note chords to only the five notes of the scale. This can introduce some interesting harmonies and progressions we wouldn’t ordinarily think of, and forces us out of the common chord shapes. Chords don’t have to be made up only of thirds, obviously. Think maybe Andy Summer’s guitar parts with the police.

Then let your ear guide you through the melody, not limiting yourself to any particular formula. Good melodies often have notes outside of the scale anyway. A new section that isn’t limited to harmonies derived from those same five notes — plain old diatonic chords or whatever, can produce a fresh contrast, and feel like a strong “progression” from the constraints of the previous section, opening up and filling out the harmonic pallet.