Home recording gear

[QBert]

So I'd like to start recording my playing a bit, but I have no idea where to start with equipment. I've got a solid background in engineering and audio so I should have a pretty good head start on figuring out the mixing stage, but I have no clue about mics and I don't know the pro sound card market at all.

I'm looking to record guitar and vocals (the latter not that often), and would like a MIDI input as well. I'd like to keep this in the 'relatively affordable' range, as I'm doing this mostly for fun.

If you guys have any suggestions on what to buy, or links to any good resources, it would be much appreciated.

[Bob1131]

Originally Posted by QBert

So I'd like to start recording my playing a bit, but I have no idea where to start with equipment. I've got a solid background in engineering and audio so I should have a pretty good head start on figuring out the mixing stage, but I have no clue about mics and I don't know the pro sound card market at all.

I'm looking to record guitar and vocals (the latter not that often), and would like a MIDI input as well. I'd like to keep this in the 'relatively affordable' range, as I'm doing this mostly for fun.

If you guys have any suggestions on what to buy, or links to any good resources, it would be much appreciated.

One man's affordable is another man's CHEAP and yet a different man's fortune! So, specifically, what dollar amount do you want to spend?

Mic's alone can range from $50.00 to $5,000.00 and more for a single mic!! Then you can spend thousands on preamps and interfaces. A DAW (digital audio workstation software package) can be a simple free download like Audacity or $800.00 or more for pro level software. Then you will need headphones ($80 to $500), close field monitors ($100 and up per speaker), cables, mic stands, and room treatments.....you can spend a whole lot of money very quickly without ever recording a note!!

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by QBert

So I'd like to start recording my playing a bit, but I have no idea where to start with equipment. I've got a solid background in engineering and audio so I should have a pretty good head start on figuring out the mixing stage, but I have no clue about mics and I don't know the pro sound card market at all.

I'm looking to record guitar and vocals (the latter not that often), and would like a MIDI input as well. I'd like to keep this in the 'relatively affordable' range, as I'm doing this mostly for fun.

If you guys have any suggestions on what to buy, or links to any good resources, it would be much appreciated.

I'd start by getting the Sweetwater catalog and just doing some browsing to get an idea of what's out there and the price points. Beyond that, there are endless articles, books and forum posts on what gear is needed. Check out the big thread right below on what people's setups are for ideas:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=273107

[QBert]

Originally Posted by Bob1131

One man's affordable is another man's CHEAP and yet a different man's fortune! So, specifically, what dollar amount do you want to spend?

Mic's alone can range from $50.00 to $5,000.00 and more for a single mic!! Then you can spend thousands on preamps and interfaces. A DAW (digital audio workstation software package) can be a simple free download like Audacity or $800.00 or more for pro level software. Then you will need headphones ($80 to $500), close field monitors ($100 and up per speaker), cables, mic stands, and room treatments.....you can spend a whole lot of money very quickly without ever recording a note!!

lol, fair enough

I'd like to keep this somewhere in the low $100's if possible. After all, this is just something I'm doing for fun. But the good news is that from that list I the only things I need are mics, stands, and preamps/interfaces.

For software, I have access to virtually anything I want though my work. The only one I know for sure I can't get is Pro Tools or anything else from Avid. I also have monitors already, as I bought them quite a while ago just to listen to music (regular PC speakers just wouldn't cut it lol). I also have closed-back headphones and an amp for them (AKG K-550), both of which are clear and uncolored. And I have a couple of spare XLR and countless RCA cables. I also think I might be able to pull off skipping the room treatment. There's already plenty of large plush fabric and a pretty thick carpet in here, so sound reflections should be at a minimum. So I'll worry about it after the fact.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'd start by getting the Sweetwater catalog and just doing some browsing to get an idea of what's out there and the price points. Beyond that, there are endless articles, books and forum posts on what gear is needed. Check out the big thread right below on what people's setups are for ideas:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=273107

Awesome, I'll do just that

[Rick Shepherd]

At the price point and interest level you mentioned, how about just a portable hand-held recorder. Many of the options I have read about on this forum have received favorable review.

[QBert]

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

At the price point and interest level you mentioned, how about just a portable hand-held recorder. Many of the options I have read about on this forum have received favorable review.

I didn't even realize those things existed until just now! I'll check them out, thanks .

I do have a question though, while I'm going through sweetwater....which kind of Mics am I supposed to be looking at?

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by QBert

I didn't even realize those things existed until just now! I'll check them out, thanks .

I do have a question though, while I'm going through sweetwater....which kind of Mics am I supposed to be looking at?

I didn't pipe in with my two cents as you specifically asked for MIDI capability. You might pick up an idea or two on the audio recording side at my webpage, though:

http://www.bluestemstrings.com/pageRecording1.html

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by QBert

I didn't even realize those things existed until just now! I'll check them out, thanks .

I do have a question though, while I'm going through sweetwater....which kind of Mics am I supposed to be looking at?

For recording, most people use condensor mics.

I'm sorry, tho, I took it from your original question you were familiar with recording and just wanted to get uptodate on current gear. It might be better to get up to speed on a few things first. I'd strongly second the portable recorder option for anyone getting started. They're like a point and shot camera, you almost can't go wrong with the part they address, and you can focus on techniques instead (which is the harder part). I'm most familiar with the Zoom H4n, and it acts as an all in one recording platform, including some basic multi-tracking, all with built in mics. But it also lets you plug in external mics, and can act as a computer interface. Add Reaper ($60 shareware) or Audacity (free) on your computer, and you have a pretty good setup. Amazing bargain that works great. You can check out almost any of my more recent you tube videos for an example of the sound you can achieve with the Zoom H4n, at least using external mics - tho you could come close to this with the built-in mics. These recorders are pretty much a no-brainer for any guitarist, especially if you're into recording. I have a lot of pricier recording gear, but I still use my Zoom all the time.

You might find the article I wrote in this month's Acoustic Guitar useful. Not about gear per-se, but about the process of recording acoustic guitar, with some gear stuff thrown in. There's also a you tube video demoing mic setups, etc, and you can see some stuff about how I go about tracking and editing. Info here: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=290906

And perusing that other thread I pointed you to, as well as many other discussions here will give you lots of starting points on mics and other gear. There are very few wrong choices, and no single "right" one, for sure, and there are hundreds to choose from, so the best thing is to dive in and read about recording in general, read about what choices others have made (with a generous grain of salt) and start to get a feel for what's out there.

The good thing about starting with something like the Zoom (or equivalent) is that you get started actually recording with minimal effort and money, and you'll learn where you run into limitations. Then you can "upgrade' by adding something you need to accomplish a specific task - not because someone on the internet told you to buy it :-)

BTW, on MIDI, I'm no expert on that, but as far as I know, nearly all MIDI devices these days just plug into USB, so it's increasingly rare to find a computer audio interface that supports it. There's no need, just go directly into your computer.

[QBert]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

I didn't pipe in with my two cents as you specifically asked for MIDI capability. You might pick up an idea or two on the audio recording side at my webpage, though:

http://www.bluestemstrings.com/pageRecording1.html

Just read through it, thanks for that

Originally Posted by Doug Young

For recording, most people use condensor mics.

I'm sorry, tho, I took it from your original question you were familiar with recording and just wanted to get uptodate on current gear. It might be better to get up to speed on a few things first. I'd strongly second the portable recorder option for anyone getting started. They're like a point and shot camera, you almost can't go wrong with the part they address, and you can focus on techniques instead (which is the harder part). I'm most familiar with the Zoom H4n, and it acts as an all in one recording platform, including some basic multi-tracking, all with built in mics. But it also lets you plug in external mics, and can act as a computer interface. Add Reaper ($60 shareware) or Audacity (free) on your computer, and you have a pretty good setup. Amazing bargain that works great. You can check out almost any of my more recent you tube videos for an example of the sound you can achieve with the Zoom H4n, at least using external mics - tho you could come close to this with the built-in mics. These recorders are pretty much a no-brainer for any guitarist, especially if you're into recording. I have a lot of pricier recording gear, but I still use my Zoom all the time.

You might find the article I wrote in this month's Acoustic Guitar useful. Not about gear per-se, but about the process of recording acoustic guitar, with some gear stuff thrown in. There's also a you tube video demoing mic setups, etc, and you can see some stuff about how I go about tracking and editing. Info here: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=290906

And perusing that other thread I pointed you to, as well as many other discussions here will give you lots of starting points on mics and other gear. There are very few wrong choices, and no single "right" one, for sure, and there are hundreds to choose from, so the best thing is to dive in and read about recording in general, read about what choices others have made (with a generous grain of salt) and start to get a feel for what's out there.

The good thing about starting with something like the Zoom (or equivalent) is that you get started actually recording with minimal effort and money, and you'll learn where you run into limitations. Then you can "upgrade' by adding something you need to accomplish a specific task - not because someone on the internet told you to buy it :-)

BTW, on MIDI, I'm no expert on that, but as far as I know, nearly all MIDI devices these days just plug into USB, so it's increasingly rare to find a computer audio interface that supports it. There's no need, just go directly into your computer.

Yeah I guess I should have been more specific with my previous knowledge . So yeah, I've never recorded anything, but I have plenty of related technical knowledge from various backgrounds ranging from amplifier circuitry to audio encoding algorithms and lots of stuff in between. So I'm not going to be totally in the dark when dealing with editing waveforms. But I am clueless as to how to best get the sound of the instrument onto the computer.

I just bought the magazine to read your article, and it and the video were VERY helpful. You covered quite a lot in there!

I also listened to a ton of H4n clips, your videos included (great music by the way ), and while it's very appealing since it's small and can double as a PC interface for other mics later down the line, going with a PC setup from the get-go seems more cost effective. It's more flexible, it'll sound better, and it'll be longer before I outgrow it. Or am I missing something here?

Either way, just to throw an idea out there, what do you think of the following setup for $315:
Focusrite Scarlett 2i4
2x AKG P170 or ATH2021 mics (is there a big difference?)
2x Stands
1x Pop filter
Cakewalk Sonar (since I can't get Pro Tools)

Also, I just dug up an EMU-0204 interface, which records up to 24bit/192kHz but has only one input and no phantom power. So it may be good for pickups but that's about it. Either way what do you think of that setup? It's only ~$65 more than an H4n, and at the very least it gives the option of a spaced mic setup and recording two separate sources simultaneously more 'cleanly' (guitar + vocals, or two guitars).

The MIDI input isn't really a necessity btw, it's just nice to have to get some use out of an old keyboard. Plus, I just ran into a some USB->MIDI cables for like $6 which will work just fine.

[Rudy4]

You'll need the interface, computer, and headphones and/or powered monitors for editing in any case, so go ahead and record that way initially if you want.

Here's what you're missing:

You may find that the technicalities of the computer, while great for editing, get in the way of the creative process that is recording. That's why I prefer to use a device dedicated to doing just that for audio capture and leave the computer for all of the dudgery necessary for converting ideas into reality. I think in the end each user needs to evaluate how they like to work and purchase equipment based on their preferred style, that's why I like something like the Zoom R8 that I can tuck under and arm and go to a quiet spot with a pair of spaced SDCs for actual recording. Want to try recording in the bathtub? Portable, no problem. PC, you're gonna need help.

The Focusrite gets a lot of love just about everywhere. I do wonder how their solid reputation will be effected with equipment that's been manufactured for the mass consumer market, though. I don't know if it's really any better than the scads of other interfaces on the market now, somehow I'd have to think it fits in with everyone else's box.

Cakewalk (Sonar) is the ONLY product that I've personally had a bad experiance with. I spent way more time with crashes and getting it to work at all then actual recording time. N-Track, Mackie Tracktion, Audacity, and Reaper would work just fine on my PC, just not Sonar. I basically threw away nearly $200 in my dealings with it, but I'm sure it was just me as there are a lot of users. They "reinvent" their product every few years, following the Microsoft business model. I found that it didn't work for me, YMMV. Before you spend any money I'd download and try Reaper. I think you'll find a rock solid DAW with great functionality. It's complex enough that it WILL require a bit of a learning curve, but that comes with it's functionality.

Your EMU would work fine with the addition of an in-line phantom power for your mic, $40 or so, provided current drivers play well with your computer.

[BoneDigger]

My setup works fairly well and it didn't cost an arm and a leg. The most expensive parts were the recorder and the monitors.

Zoom H4N recorder
Samson C02 mics (pair) for stereo guitar
V67 mic for voice
Rokit RK6 powered monitors
Boom mic stand for the C02s
Adjustable height mic stand for the V67
Reaper for mixing

That's about it. Of course you need cables and a computer as well.

Todd

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by QBert

I also listened to a ton of H4n clips, your videos included (great music by the way ), and while it's very appealing since it's small and can double as a PC interface for other mics later down the line, going with a PC setup from the get-go seems more cost effective. It's more flexible, it'll sound better, and it'll be longer before I outgrow it. Or am I missing something here?

I'm not sure why these things would be true. The Zoom acts as an audio interface, so you can use it just like a separate interface. There's no reason to think a cheap interface will sound any better, or have more flexibility. If you can plug mics in and route them into your computer, it's doing its job. I have a lot of money tied up in gear, I still use the H4n a lot.

What I see often here, (and I think someone else just said this), is that people who start recording often get mired down in all the gear, and never get around to figuring out how to make a good recording, which has more to do with mic placement, room acoustics, and your performance. The Zoom (or equivalent) gets out of the way, and lets you focus on those things, and yet still lets you add additional mics, and act like an external interface. And above all, it can sound excellent. People have recorded CDs on it (Adam Raffery is one I know of). I know it looks like a toy, and there's a feeling that a bigger box must be better... That's ok, feeling confident about your gear is part of the experience.

Either way, just to throw an idea out there, what do you think of the following setup for $315:

That seems fine. I have no personal experience with any of those, but it's likely as good a place to start as any. The gear is rarely the biggest issue. You might look into Reaper as software (free download trial). Very impressive program. But I haven't kept up with the latest versions of Cakewalk.

It's only ~$65 more than an H4n, and at the very least it gives the option of a spaced mic setup and recording two separate sources simultaneously more 'cleanly' (guitar + vocals, or two guitars).

The H4n will also support external mics, so you can use spaced pairs. But it sounds like price is the major concern here, and there's nothing wrong with keeping the budget as low as possible as you learn. Above all you want some stuff you're comfortable with so you can focus on the music. If you get into recording, you'll find there's always something new to buy :-)

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

...Above all you want some stuff you're comfortable with so you can focus on the music. If you get into recording, you'll find there's always something new to buy :-)

No truer words have been spoken.

[KenW]

If you get the Focusrite, it will come with a copy of Ableton Lite, so there is no need to purchase Sonar/Cakewalk. Editing with Ableton is tricky, I know there are some that do fine with it, but while I was using it, I had it set up to use Audacity as an external editor.

Since I was bound and determined to have only one DAW on my system, I tried every one that I could think of that had a demo, including Sonar. I went ahead and purchased a license for Reaper. You can try it unhampered for free.

[QBert]

Alright, I'll take your guys' advice and go with the H4n and Reaper.

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Your EMU would work fine with the addition of an in-line phantom power for your mic, $40 or so, provided current drivers play well with your computer.

That's an interesting idea. I also found out that it's a single stereo input, so in reality it would work with 2 mics. It just wouldn't be balanced. Not sure how good this room will be with electrical noise :/

Originally Posted by BoneDigger

My setup works fairly well and it didn't cost an arm and a leg. The most expensive parts were the recorder and the monitors.

Do you have any clips of what the H4n+C02 Mics sound like?

Originally Posted by Doug Young

What I see often here, (and I think someone else just said this), is that people who start recording often get mired down in all the gear, and never get around to figuring out how to make a good recording, which has more to do with mic placement, room acoustics, and your performance. The Zoom (or equivalent) gets out of the way, and lets you focus on those things, and yet still lets you add additional mics, and act like an external interface. And above all, it can sound excellent. People have recorded CDs on it (Adam Raffery is one I know of). I know it looks like a toy, and there's a feeling that a bigger box must be better... That's ok, feeling confident about your gear is part of the experience.

Well yeah, that really goes for anything. Just like how buying a great guitar doesn't make you a great musician. But you know how a bad guitar can prevent a beginner from progressing? That's really what I want to avoid. I do want to learn the techniques of recording and editing, I just don't want to have bought any gear that's actually limiting.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The H4n will also support external mics, so you can use spaced pairs. But it sounds like price is the major concern here, and there's nothing wrong with keeping the budget as low as possible as you learn. Above all you want some stuff you're comfortable with so you can focus on the music. If you get into recording, you'll find there's always something new to buy :-)

As if the guitars didn't make this hobby expensive enough!

Originally Posted by KenW

If you get the Focusrite, it will come with a copy of Ableton Lite, so there is no need to purchase Sonar/Cakewalk. Editing with Ableton is tricky, I know there are some that do fine with it, but while I was using it, I had it set up to use Audacity as an external editor.

Since I was bound and determined to have only one DAW on my system, I tried every one that I could think of that had a demo, including Sonar. I went ahead and purchased a license for Reaper. You can try it unhampered for free.

I'm actually able to get Sonar for free through my work, but yeah I'm just gonna go with Reaper.