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  #46  
Old 01-17-2020, 12:18 AM
AZLiberty AZLiberty is offline
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And it comes with a Gig Bag.
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  #47  
Old 01-17-2020, 12:29 AM
Acoustic Wolf Acoustic Wolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuksan View Post
The weight of the glue that goes into making a two layer laminate is miniscule.

If they decided to do laminated back and sides solely for the sake of cost, it doesn't seem likely that they would have chosen to use koa which is much more expensive than woods like Indian rosewood or mahogany. If the sole objective was cost savings they could have done the laminates using only relatively cheap woods. Then they would have then been able to sell the guitar for an even lower price, but it would have had a less distinctive appearance.

My guess is that they had a price point in mind and in addition they had made the decision that they wanted to use koa for the back and sides for its beauty and to make this new model stand out. Meeting the price point that's been mentioned in this thread would likely have been impossible using solid koa. So I don't see a problem here. Koa is one of the most beautiful woods used for guitars, there's no functional deficiency in having laminated back and sides, and Martin can make the guitar available for a relatively moderate price.
Does anyone know how many laminate pieces of Koa would make up a solid piece? I.e., what is the opportunity cost of using laminate koa back and sides purely for aesthetic purposes that would have otherwise been a fine sounding solid koa back and sides.
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  #48  
Old 01-17-2020, 12:32 AM
Shuksan Shuksan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acoustic Wolf View Post
Does anyone know how many laminate pieces of Koa would make up a solid piece? I.e., what is the opportunity cost of using laminate koa back and sides purely for aesthetic purposes that would have otherwise been a fine sounding solid koa back and sides.
Just to be clear, the back and sides of the Martin in question are a lamination of one layer of koa veneer onto one layer of Khaya (African mahogany).
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  #49  
Old 01-17-2020, 04:12 AM
Acoustic Wolf Acoustic Wolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuksan View Post
Just to be clear, the back and sides of the Martin in question are a lamination of one layer of koa veneer onto one layer of Khaya (African mahogany).
Yes, but what I mean is if one solid piece of Koa that could have built one Martin guitar with solid Koa back and sides goes into say 10 Martins with laminate Koa back and sides, that seems OK, but if it's say one piece of solid piece of Koa goes into 3 Martins with laminate Koa back and sides, that seems to be a bit of a shame... In my opinion anyway...
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  #50  
Old 01-17-2020, 06:31 AM
bluetweed bluetweed is offline
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In watching all the Videos I really believe Martin will hit a home run for what this guitar is designed to do.
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  #51  
Old 01-17-2020, 06:52 AM
jimcaleca jimcaleca is offline
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This is the best video I found describing the new SC Martin. I did play one at the factory yesterday, and it sounded surprisingly full and balanced with its very low setup.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzWZi872By0
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  #52  
Old 01-17-2020, 06:53 AM
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It's a new direction for Martin for sure. It could cut into the sales of Taylor's X-14 and to a lesser extent Breedlove's proprietary C25 shape. Don't know if that was part of their motivation but I can't help thinking it played into the picture somehow?
It's not your grandfathers Martin but there is something about it that is interesting enough for me to want to play it. Especially if it can be easily setup to handle 12's or 13's?
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Last edited by llew; 01-17-2020 at 07:01 AM.
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  #53  
Old 01-17-2020, 06:58 AM
Treenewt Treenewt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuksan View Post
The weight of the glue that goes into making a two layer laminate is miniscule.

If they decided to do laminated back and sides solely for the sake of cost, it doesn't seem likely that they would have chosen to use koa for the outer layer which is much more expensive than woods like Indian rosewood or mahogany. If the sole objective was cost savings they could have done the laminates using only relatively cheap woods. Then they would have then been able to sell the guitar for an even lower price, but it would have had a less distinctive appearance.

My guess is that they had a price point in mind and in addition they had made the decision that they wanted to use koa for the back and sides for its beauty and to make this new model stand out. Meeting the price point that's been mentioned in this thread would likely have been impossible using solid koa. So I don't see a problem here. Koa is one of the most beautiful woods used for guitars, there's no functional deficiency in having laminated back and sides, and Martin can make the guitar available for a relatively moderate price.
All very good points. Touché.

However, I still stand by my own points. Laminated veneers allow a company to stretch the investment of a particular type of wood over a much larger range of product than solid. I grew up in the furniture industry, and veneers were always a cost saving way of getting nice looking wood onto a better price point product over solid wood. Flames mahogany veneers over cheap substrate gave the look of upper end without the cost.

And while the glue might not add a load of weight, three layers of grain going different directions with glue in between, Ive gotta believe that would and does affect tone. I don’t think my ears deceive me when I play a Taylor 214 vs a 314, and there is noticeable difference in the tone (esp the mids). Just my opinion.

I still say that based on build location (Mexico plant), intended market (gigging pros) and price point, Martin used it to hit a price point aimed directly at that market.
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  #54  
Old 01-17-2020, 06:59 AM
Treenewt Treenewt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimcaleca View Post
This is the best video I found describing the new SC Martin. I did play one at the factory yesterday, and it sounded surprisingly full and balanced with its very low setup.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzWZi872By0
That’s encouraging to hear!
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  #55  
Old 01-17-2020, 07:27 AM
EatingHumblePie EatingHumblePie is offline
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I like Martin's idea.

I think I would have preferred solid Khaya back and sides rather than having a koa veneer for optical purposes. Is Khaya such an ugly looking wood that it wouldn't appeal to the eye?
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  #56  
Old 01-17-2020, 07:30 AM
musicman1951 musicman1951 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acoustic Wolf View Post
Yes, but what I mean is if one solid piece of Koa that could have built one Martin guitar with solid Koa back and sides goes into say 10 Martins with laminate Koa back and sides, that seems OK, but if it's say one piece of solid piece of Koa goes into 3 Martins with laminate Koa back and sides, that seems to be a bit of a shame... In my opinion anyway...
Assuming typical thickness and correct math - about 6 guitars veneered with the wood from one solid back.
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  #57  
Old 01-17-2020, 08:20 AM
gr81dorn gr81dorn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acoustic Wolf View Post
Yes, but what I mean is if one solid piece of Koa that could have built one Martin guitar with solid Koa back and sides goes into say 10 Martins with laminate Koa back and sides, that seems OK, but if it's say one piece of solid piece of Koa goes into 3 Martins with laminate Koa back and sides, that seems to be a bit of a shame... In my opinion anyway...
The key thing you're not considering here is that much of the wood that is used for veneer wouldn't yield solid wood in the first place, so it's chosen to be veneer at the sawmill or once it's become offall at the sawmill or another manufacturing point.

Martin isn't slicing up usable solid koa - they're not slicing up anything, a sawmill has made that determination long before it ever arrives at Martin to make it into anything.

Making veneer is a very responsible means to maximize the use of some of the rarer/prettier material, so sometimes it's just decided to make veneer to get more use out of something, but a lot of the time it's recovery.

You'd also be shocked at how thin we can slice it...the veneer industry uses some weird fractions, but it's common for veneer to be 1/42", especially when it has no need to be durable but purely to used for appearance.
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  #58  
Old 01-17-2020, 08:21 AM
Orphan Orphan is offline
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https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...sc-13e-natural

I really like the innovation. As explained in the video it's a Road Series guitar. I would like to see it in an upgraded version, solid rosewood or mahogany etc.
All in all I think Martin has a winner here.
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  #59  
Old 01-17-2020, 08:25 AM
Treenewt Treenewt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr81dorn View Post
The key thing you're not considering here is that much of the wood that is used for veneer wouldn't yield solid wood in the first place, so it's chosen to be veneer at the sawmill or once it's become offall at the sawmill or another manufacturing point.

Martin isn't slicing up usable solid koa - they're not slicing up anything, a sawmill has made that determination long before it ever arrives at Martin to make it into anything.

Making veneer is a very responsible means to maximize the use of some of the rarer/prettier material, so sometimes it's just decided to make veneer to get more use out of something, but a lot of the time it's recovery.

You'd also be shocked at how thin we can slice it...the veneer industry uses some weird fractions, but it's common for veneer to be 1/42", especially when it has no need to be durable but purely to used for appearance.

Great points
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  #60  
Old 01-17-2020, 08:31 AM
JackB1 JackB1 is offline
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It doesn't really tick ALL the boxes for a live guitar with that quacky Fishman pickup, which is just a Sonitone with a soundhole tuner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman1951 View Post
I think it's brilliant. There are lots of people looking for a moderately priced laminated electric guitar with low action for gigs and this seems to tick all the boxes.

Certainly the sound doesn't compete with a traditional Martin acoustic, but I don't think it's trying to - different market. And the idea that an electric guitar player can pick one up and feel comfortable only adds to the market.
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