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  #1  
Old 04-29-2015, 06:32 PM
flamencoLVR flamencoLVR is offline
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Default General Question-Retuniing

1. How often should it be necessary to retune a decent quality nylon string guitar that is in good condition, after new strings are properly installed and tuned?

2. What are the proper steps of installing a new set of strings?

3. What causes strings to be out of tune when moving up or down then fingerboard and what to do about it.?

I have an old nylon string Martin classical that I have been playing casually since the 60's but I don't have a good grasp on the above.
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  #2  
Old 04-29-2015, 06:57 PM
brucefulton brucefulton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flamencoLVR View Post
1. How often should it be necessary to retune a decent quality nylon string guitar that is in good condition, after new strings are properly installed and tuned?

2. What are the proper steps of installing a new set of strings?

3. What causes strings to be out of tune when moving up or down then fingerboard and what to do about it.?

I have an old nylon string Martin classical that I have been playing casually since the 60's but I don't have a good grasp on the above.
1. Every few minutes, for the first few hours.
2. One at a time, unless you need to have them all off for some reason.
3. Stretch. Not much.
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Old 04-29-2015, 09:13 PM
Ceabeceabe Ceabeceabe is offline
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I've got an older Ramirez 4e that takes about 5 days to settle in once new strings are on it. Granted I use more than one tuning, but typically try to keep it down to 2 similar turnings while the strings settle in. I have a newer classical that takes just a few days to settle.

Slippage on the tuner rollers and tie holes (which depends on string type and how you tie and secure the strings) as well as the how secure the rollers are and to a lesser degree the coating on the guitar all factor in to how quickly the strings settle.
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  #4  
Old 04-30-2015, 06:22 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by flamencoLVR View Post
3. What causes strings to be out of tune when moving up or down then fingerboard and what to do about it.?
Two things.

1. The intonation is "out".

In short, the frets are placed according to a mathematical formula that assumes things about how the string behave. In reality, strings don't behave that way and will play sharp when fretted. Depressing a string against a fret stretches the string. The pitch of the string is proportional to its tension. Stretching the string increases its tension causing it to play sharp.

The remedy is to "compensate" the amount that it plays sharp by increasing the actual vibrating string length by moving the saddle away from the nut. Typically, this is about 2 to 3 mm for nylon string guitars. Each of the six strings will require its own amount of compensation. Changing string types/tensions can also influence how much compensation is required.

Chose the strings you like to use, then take it to a skilled luthier or repair person to have the compensation setup to improve its intonation. Usually, this is a minor adjustment.

2. String choice

Nylon strings are notorious for being inconsistent in their ability to play in tune. Some brands are very inconsistent. La Bella, for example, particularly their black trebles. Other brands are far more consistent. I've found D'Addario Pro Arte's, for example, to be quite consistent.
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Old 04-30-2015, 09:15 AM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flamencoLVR View Post
1. How often should it be necessary to retune a decent quality nylon string guitar that is in good condition, after new strings are properly installed and tuned?

2. What are the proper steps of installing a new set of strings?

3. What causes strings to be out of tune when moving up or down then fingerboard and what to do about it.?

I have an old nylon string Martin classical that I have been playing casually since the 60's but I don't have a good grasp on the above.
Once the strings have past their "stretch in" period, they should remain relatively stable, but you can notice changes in the trebles or basses sometimes due to humidity and/or temperature changes.

There are many ways to install strings. Any decent way to cleanly twist and tie the strings at bridge and headstock will work fine. The excess should be trimmed to prevent unwanted vibrations.

After installing any strings, I stretch the length of each string one at a time, using both hands so that fingers hold the string in position and the thumbs stretch out the portion between the fingers. The will shorten the stretch in period of some strings by up to 3 days or more.

I find that Savarez Alliance strings stretch in very quickly, while the thicker diametered D'Addario strings take longer to stretch in.

The intonation should be considered very carefully but is best left until after the strings are stretched to ensure accurate measurements.

Some cheaper nylon strings can have intonation problems themselves.
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Old 04-30-2015, 01:13 PM
flamencoLVR flamencoLVR is offline
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Thanks, that helps demystify things.
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Old 04-30-2015, 08:39 PM
Ziggy925 Ziggy925 is offline
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For stringing a classical guitar YouTube has some excellent videos. Slippage is often a problem if you're not sure how to lock the strings at the bridge and the post.
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Old 05-01-2015, 12:30 AM
perttime perttime is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
...

1. The intonation is "out".
...

The remedy is to "compensate" the amount that it plays sharp by increasing the actual vibrating string length by moving the saddle away from the nut.
...
It is also POSSIBLE for the nut to be placed slightly wrong. Some guitar builders make the distance from nut to first fret slightly shorter than calculated, to improve intonation at the first few frets.

High action may increase intonation problems.

Worst case is that the frets are not placed correctly.
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:19 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by perttime View Post
It is also POSSIBLE for the nut to be placed slightly wrong. Some guitar builders make the distance from nut to first fret slightly shorter than calculated, to improve intonation at the first few frets.
Not very common that a modern guitar has the nut in the wrong place. True, many makers do slightly shorten the distance from the nut to the first fret to improve overall intonation.

Quote:
High action may increase intonation problems.
Also true. The higher the strings, the more compensation is required at the saddle. The strings should be brought down to the preferred height prior to compensating the saddle.

If the string height at the nut is excessive - it most often is - that can cause the first few frets to play sharp.

Quote:
Worst case is that the frets are not placed correctly.
That's pretty uncommon in modern instrument making.
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  #10  
Old 05-01-2015, 10:48 AM
RustyAxe RustyAxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flamencoLVR View Post
1. How often should it be necessary to retune a decent quality nylon string guitar that is in good condition, after new strings are properly installed and tuned?
Every time you pick it up to play it. Temperature has a great effect on strings and intonation. So does stretch over time.

Quote:
2. What are the proper steps of installing a new set of strings?
Google is your friend. There are videos that demonstrate this.

Quote:
What causes strings to be out of tune when moving up or down then fingerboard and what to do about it.?
Poor intonation or poor technique ... or both.
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  #11  
Old 05-01-2015, 11:35 AM
perttime perttime is offline
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Originally Posted by RustyAxe View Post
Poor intonation or poor technique ... or both.
I suppose it is easier to pull the notes out of tune on a nylon string guitar than on a steel string, with the low string tension - or even push the strings against the fretboard with so much force that it raises the note.
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  #12  
Old 05-01-2015, 11:57 AM
Ziggy925 Ziggy925 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perttime View Post
I suppose it is easier to pull the notes out of tune on a nylon string guitar than on a steel string, with the low string tension - or even push the strings against the fretboard with so much force that it raises the note.
It's easy to fret a string on an angle thereby increasing the tension. This is a common problem with intonation and the luthier or tech has to take this into account. Do you fret lightly or heavily?
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