Is compression in post necessary on solo acoustic fingerstyle recordings?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Thanks so much Doug, I think I am beginning to get it now thanks to your explanation and screen shot.

Hmmm? Let me see if I have it somewhat correct by putting it into the simplest of words;
Buss's are for specifically for Parallel use? In your case you have two different reverbs going in your buss/s. So you are parallel reverbing in this example? Your main track dry of course...and the buss track that you send to is Wet?

By Sending the signal to the buss you are in effect in parallel mode? Can it be this simple? I hope so, cause then I got it. Bussing is for Paralleling. Correct or Not?

In my example, I used the busses for parallel. Main path is dry, the parallel path (busses) is 100% wet, and then I blend by mixing the levels.

But busses are just a way to route and you can route any way you like. For example, say you have a drum set recorded with a half dozen mics, snare mic, kick, hi hat, etc, each on a different track. Instead of sending those all directly to the main output (the "2-bus"), you could send them to a bus and NOT send them to the output directly. Send the bus to the 2-bus. Now the bus becomes a sub-mix, so you can turn up or down all drums as a unit, while using the individual channels to adjust the levels between drums. So that's serial. And you could apply effects to either individual drums by placing them on each separate track, or to the overall set by adding the effects to the bus.

There's nothing to keep you from sending something to Bus 1 and sending the output of bus 1 to Bus 2, and Bus 2 to Bus 3, etc. We had an example of that TBMan posted from Stephen Wake a while back. Why would you do that? Hard to say, but basically you can route anything anywhere you want with busses.

[Bob Womack]

Perhaps I can add some clarification:

Most DAW terminology is borrowed from recording consoles because DAWs interfaces are designed to mimic the combination of a recording console and a multitrack recorder.

Bus. The terminology is borrowed from high-voltage electrical transmission. Large vehicles like ships will often have more than one bus or rail, a large physical metal rail or a large cable through which the main power supplies for the various systems within the vehicle are conducted. You may remember that one of the first reports from the Apollo 13 astronauts was that they had a "main B bus undervolt" - they had suffered some casualty that had caused the voltage in main electrical bus B to sag. Ships have a switching room where all the buses are routed via bus bars. There are big physical knife switches to switch between these bus bars. Your breaker box in your home may have bus bars, big copper rails that carry the current and the breakers contact. Physical recording consoles may have a cable or a rod or rail that signals can be sent to to be routed to a particular output of the console. That is a Bus.

There can be different types of buses: mix, auxiliary, cue, and multitrack.
A mix bus is what you can create a mix on. There are mono, stereo, and surround mix buses.
An auxiliary bus is a bus for general purposes. For example, they can be used to SEND a portion of a signal to an effect during a mix. If you do that, you will need a RETURN to bring the output of the effect back to the MIX bus.
A Cue bus it typically used to create a mix to send to the artist's headphones.
a Multitrack bus is used during recording to route your input channel to any desired multi-track recording track.

A TRACK is a single lane on a recorder where a signal can be recorded.
It takes one track to carry mono.
It takes two tracks to carry stereo.
Unless there is some sort of multiplexing going on it takes six tracks to carry 5.1, eight tracks to carry 7.1, etc.

Does that help a little?

Bob

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

Perhaps I can add some clarification:
Does that help a little?
Bob

So anything put on a specific bus is already mixed with everything else on that bus and cannot be unmixed later?

Sending different tracks to the master track makes the master track a bus for those tracks?

But you can send either tracks either pre or post fx?

I am supposing the above is true.

Personally I have recorded just solo guitar and work with one stereo track. Rarely have I use sends and returns.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Thanks so much Doug, I think I am beginning to get it now thanks to your explanation and screen shot.

Hmmm? Let me see if I have it somewhat correct by putting it into the simplest of words;
Buss's are for specifically for Parallel use? In your case you have two different reverbs going in your buss/s. So you are parallel reverbing in this example? Your main track dry of course...and the buss track that you send to is Wet?

By Sending the signal to the buss you are in effect in parallel mode? Can it be this simple? I hope so, cause then I got it. Bussing is for Paralleling.
Correct or Not?

Yes but Not Only for parallel,,, busses are used both as "sends" BUT can also be used for track "output routing"

So to distinguish in simple layperson lingo ,,,, lets just call them "Send Busses" and "Track Output Busses"

Are you using Logic ? if so look at Dougs screen shot (I don't use Logic But if I am understanding Dougs screen shot correctly". THEN

In Dougs screen shot he is using both kinds of busses.

Reading down the left side at the 'Sends" as you look across the "sends sections of the tracks he is using two different "Send" Busses" labeled "Bus 1" and "Bus 2
And Yes he is using these "Send Busses" for his parallel processing and yes is like you describe in your last paragraph. In the screen shot these "Parallel processing" tracks are the 3rd and 4th from the right (and the tracks are labeled "Bricasti" and "Lexicon" and are in Yellow and note their respective Inputs are Bus 1 and Bus 2 .

BUT below the "Sends" section are the track "Output" sections. Where he using a "Track Output Bus" labeled "St Out" that routes all the tracks "Outputs" to his 2 Bus track we have been talking about (the second from right in Pink ) labeled "Stereo Out"

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

I'm trying to get my head around this too, and after trawling the webz this seems to be key. Many people apparently put their meters and visualization on the master, because they need to be after any final volume changes. Overall mix FX like compression are on a 2-bus because they should be pre-fader. Am I understanding that correctly?

(In fact, I use Reaper which has no post-fader FX at all, master or otherwise, so the ONLY way to get "post-fader" metering of your final mix is to use a 2-bus and send to the master as de facto post-fader of said 2-bus. That may explain some of the difficulty I was having in this thread.)

Well yes more or less
In ProTools all track types inserts section (plugins) are coming into the signal flow pre fader.
Except for a "Master Fader" track type where the inserts section comes into the signal flow post fader
But besides as just a final meter, you can put any FX on that Master Fader track as well

Unfortunately I am out of town and not at my studio so I can't do a new screen shot specially about this

But I have this old screen shot and will try to explain it

So in the screen shot below all the tracks outputs are being routed via a "Routing Bus" to the my 2 Bus track is (orange color) and is second from right labeled "2 Mix"
The 2 Mix output is Routed to "StereoMontr" (for Stereo Monitors) and is the label for my main outs

On the 2 Mix track, you can see "3U" in the inserts and yes it is my "Overall mix" compressor and is pre fader

On the Master Fader track labeled "Master 1" (far right in Red) you see the MGM plugin which is an analog soft clipper/limiter plugin emulation and it is post fader

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

So anything put on a specific bus is already mixed with everything else on that bus and cannot be unmixed later?

true.

Sending different tracks to the master track makes the master track a bus for those tracks?

A master bus routes tracks to the master track. remember, a track is a recording lane.

But you can send either tracks either pre or post fx?

That is software dependent. Some offer prefade to the master bus and some don't.[/quote]
I am supposing the above is true. Personally I have recorded just solo guitar and work with one stereo track. Rarely have I use sends and returns.[/QUOTE]Stereo tracks are actually simply two mono tracks that are bound together and appear and can be affects by a single set of controls. You are probably accomplishing your effects via INSERTs rather than SEND/RETURN. You can think of INSERTs as being like the series insert on a guitar amp and SEND/RETURN as being like a parallel insert on a guitar amp.

Why use SEND/RETURN? A typical application is when you've got several background vocals that you want processed identically with reverb. You create a reverb channel that includes an inserted reverb plug-in and a return channel and send all of the BGVs to that single effect. Bring up the output of the reverb return into the stereo mix, two-mix, etc. and Voile'!

Bob

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

true.A master bus routes tracks to the master track. remember, a track is a recording lane.That is software dependent. Some offer prefade to the master bus and some don't.

Thanks for the info. I'm thinking of a recording bus as a type of bus different people can get on to but can't get back off of.

[Chipotle]

I understand the routing--in fact, I have tried to use the plumbing/water flow analogy with someone else. My question is more in the "Why that way?". So in your example:

Originally Posted by KevWind

On the 2 Mix track, you can see "3U" in the inserts and yes it is my "Overall mix" compressor and is pre fader

That makes sense.

On the Master Fader track labeled "Master 1" (far right in Red) you see the MGM plugin which is an analog soft clipper/limiter plugin emulation and it is post fader

So "why?" the MGM plugin here? Is it just a "safety" for preventing clipping at the very end, or does it serve some other purpose?

I guess my more general purpose question is "What FX/plugins do you put on the master instead of the 2-bus, and why?", and I'm guessing that the pre/post fader difference is part of it.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

So "why?" the MGM plugin here? Is it just a "safety" for preventing clipping at the very end, or does it serve some other purpose?

I guess my more general purpose question is "What FX/plugins do you put on the master instead of the 2-bus, and why?", and I'm guessing that the pre/post fader difference is part of it.

The MGM ? honestly I was simply trying it there and was just saying the PT does provide Insert slots on the Master Fader and I had done that in that screen shot....Normally I don't put anything on the Master Faders and simply use it like you mentioned as the final metering in the chain.


I think what Brent was talking about how some use Master Faders for that specific post fader option, is more relevant to your question but for what I do personally I don't mix that way.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Well yes more or less
In ProTools all track types inserts section (plugins) are coming into the signal flow pre fader.
Except for a "Master Fader" track type where the inserts section comes into the signal flow post fader
But besides as just a final meter, you can put any FX on that Master Fader track as well

Unfortunately I am out of town and not at my studio so I can't do a new screen shot specially about this

But I have this old screen shot and will try to explain it

So in the screen shot below all the tracks outputs are being routed via a "Routing Bus" to the my 2 Bus track is (orange color) and is second from right labeled "2 Mix"
The 2 Mix output is Routed to "StereoMontr" (for Stereo Monitors) and is the label for my main outs

On the 2 Mix track, you can see "3U" in the inserts and yes it is my "Overall mix" compressor and is pre fader

On the Master Fader track labeled "Master 1" (far right in Red) you see the MGM plugin which is an analog soft clipper/limiter plugin emulation and it is post fader

Is your orange 2-mix track an Audio Track or an Aux Input?

[lkingston]

Yes, but only lightly.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

Is your orange 2-mix track an Audio Track or an Aux Input?

Aux Input track

[Brent Hahn]

Your 2-mix track is an...

Originally Posted by KevWind

Aux Input track

So you're doing your mixes as renders ("bounces to disk" in PT Lingo)?

I have another way to show you that you might want to try. When I can do a screenshot or two and figure out how to post images here (never done it) I'll ‘splain.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

Your 2-mix track is an...



So you're doing your mixes as renders ("bounces to disk" in PT Lingo)?

I have another way to show you that you might want to try. When I can do a screenshot or two and figure out how to post images here (never done it) I'll ‘splain.

Yes when I am ready to export I do Bounce to Disk

Are you talking about print to an Audio track, and then exporting that as a file ? Or something else ?
I understand that was a preferred method by many pros use back in the day when the Audio Engine was the older PT DAE code. But as I understand it the current Engine does not have the same issues and there my be little difference in final result ? But that is only what I have read on places like PT Expert Blog etc. and don't really understand the code differences

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Are you talking about print to an Audio track, and then exporting that as a file ? Or something else ?
I understand that was a preferred method by many pros use back in the day when the Audio Engine was the older PT DAE code. But as I understand it the current Engine does not have the same issues...

Yes, that's what I meant. Not because it sounds any different -- if you work entirely ITB it doesn't. Mainly for the speed and convenience. If you want to change 5 seconds of a 4-minute song you can do it without having to re-render the whole 4 minutes. And you can easily and quickly A/B the old vs the new before you commit.