Does the finish make a difference in the tone?

[sinistral]

This thread reminds me of a story that Trevor Gore told in a similar thread a while back:

Originally Posted by Trevor Gore

I'll give you a different perspective...

I was doing some consulting work for a guitar factory in Asia. When I was touring the plant with the management hierarchy, I was randomly pulling guitars off the line and tapping them (as guitar builders are wont to do). The puzzling thing was that prior to the finishing department all the guitars sounded "normal". What "normal" is you only know if you've tapped a lot of unfinished guitars, so really it's only something an experienced guitar builder would recognise. After the finishing department, everything sounded "dead" when tapped, and that corresponded to the finished sound of the strung instruments. Further, the "higher quality" instruments (premium woods, shinier finish) sounded most dead. After a bit of investigation, I discovered that the "higher quality" instruments essentially went through the finishing department twice, to make sure the finish was as perfect and shiny as possible, with the consequence that they had almost twice the finish thickness on them as the less expensive guitars.

I discussed this with management and arranged a blind listening test. 6 guitars were pulled from finished goods covering the range of models from low budget to quite expensive (including some that had two trips through finishing). I introduced another guitar, which was of all ply construction, (i.e. bottom of the range) that was not finished, just pulled from the line prior to finishing, had a bridge stuck on and was strung. Two different players played all the guitars in random order and the company board was asked to rate them in order of preference, where "preference" was to include at least musicality, loudness and clarity, without knowing which guitar they were listening to. The board members were doing this individually, but their results were all very similar in terms of ranking.

The unfinished guitar was way ahead of all the others, and the "double finished" guitars (which, remember, were the company's premium offering) were way behind.

Now, you can get picky with the test set up (wasn't double blind, wasn't this, wasn't that, blah, blah) but what was undoubtedly obvious to me as an "expert" and to the board (who were expert business men, rather than expert players or makers) was the night and day difference between unfinished and heavily finished guitars.

Needless to say, there were consequences. The finish, BTW, was predominantly polyester.

[mercy]

I read thru this thread cause theres always something intersting in the threads but the comment I was going to make and am now making is its all in the thickness that makes a guitar sound worse.
I had a french polished 000 once and it sounded like the normal guitars Ive had in the past that were nitro. Now I have a poly and it sounds better than any of them. Yes construction, but if the finish had been think like so many of the Pac Rim guitars were/are it wouldnt sound the way it does. So no matter what you put on, if its too think it will effect sound. Im not convinced that the type of finish has anything to do with it. Make a list of well know builders, not factory built, and note what they are putting on.

[HogsNRoses]

Another consideration besides thickness and composition is penetration in the wood. A guitar’s finish should sit right on top of the wood instead of penetrating. I’m not sure where that leaves fillers in the discussion…

Now back to composition: suppose we have the perfect nitro or PU finish. To get color, we don’t stain the guitar (which penetrates); we mix a colorant into the finish. For instance, ColorTone is mixed in a 1:32 ratio according to Stewmac. If our finish is 1/4 solids (for shellac, that’s a 2 pound cut), that means the dried finish is 1/8 colorant. That’s a big change in composition! Whatever change that makes (if any) would need to be tested.

As it turns out, I prefer the feel of a stained Gibson neck to a natural one. I think that goes to the additive changing the nitro.

Industry routinely changes the properties of plastics through additives. That’s how the hard PVC in your drainpipe becomes soft vinyl.

[Brucebubs]

I believe my Gibson Custom Shop Historic 1957 SJ-200 has only 4 coats of finish and not the usual 9 coats.

It's not the smooth, glossy finish you might be expecting on a guitar costing this much ... but it sounds superb.

[koolimy]

Originally Posted by mercy

I read thru this thread cause theres always something intersting in the threads but the comment I was going to make and am now making is its all in the thickness that makes a guitar sound worse.
I had a french polished 000 once and it sounded like the normal guitars Ive had in the past that were nitro. Now I have a poly and it sounds better than any of them. Yes construction, but if the finish had been think like so many of the Pac Rim guitars were/are it wouldnt sound the way it does. So no matter what you put on, if its too think it will effect sound. Im not convinced that the type of finish has anything to do with it. Make a list of well know builders, not factory built, and note what they are putting on.

The thing is, it's the whole system that determines the sound, which means the top, bridge, bracing, and finish, rather than just the finish. So it is very much possible that you like the poly finished guitar rather than the nitro and french polish guitar.

It's also not that any sort of finish is "better" than the other. It's just that they have different properties. So a good luthier will use the type of finish that will most suit their intended goal. A classical guitar has half the tension of a steel string, while at the same time having way more damping than a steel string. So it needs a finish that is really light and has low damping, which is usually french polish. Some classical makers use nitro, which is appropriate for their goals. A guitar that uses nitro to reach their intended goal will likely sound worse with a french polish finish.

[marciero]

Speaking of thickness, Collings for example makes the trad series in two different finish thicknesses. They claim the satin, which is "even thinner" than the gloss, has "even woodier, warmer..." On the one hand I wonder about the extent to which the variation between satin and gloss is swamped by the variation within each group- in other words is the difference lost in the noise. On the other hand, if they've played hundreds of each they would have an idea of the effect.

Sort of related is the pickguard. Im sure its been discussed but here you have a thick chunk of plastic on many guitars. Which I am guessing might have more of an affect on tone. Not quite the same but even the lightest finger pressure while playing damps the top.

[EZYPIKINS]

Originally Posted by Bluemonk

I agree that the composition of the finish makes a difference, but not with your premise.

Let's see. Daisy Rock guitars have a pointy headstock. Martins do not. I never played a Daisy Rock that I like the tone of.

Actually, I have never played a Daisy Rock

I have played many Taylor's. Would love to love one. It just don't happen.

[DejaEntendu]

Originally Posted by janinep7

Let's just talk for a moment about the D-18, because it gets so much love on AGF. It comes in 3 different finishes - Natural, Sunburst, and Ambertone. I have two guitars both in Natural finish, so that's all I know. I have never played the other two. It would be very cool to A/B/C them, but probably unlikely to find 3 D-18s, one in each available finish, all in the same place, at least until we get to Guitar Heaven.

What do you all think? Does finish affect tone? Or is that just psychological? Has anyone conducted a double-blind random study?

Yes. A properly applied gloss finish will make the tone more "glassy" if I could think of a word to describe it. But not worse. A lot of music sounds better with it. Satin finished will sound more woody. It's all about what you like.

[Tenn]

Open pore...open pour?

I have heard this term but have no clue what it is???

All I know is that if you play a guitar being built before the finish is put on, you will definitely hear a difference when the finish goes on....and not for the better.

[SalFromChatham]

Alls I know is how much more open every satin finish guitar I have owned sounds, and that it’s no coincidence I gravitate there. Martin15s, Guild D20, Iris OG, Taylor AD17 and 27, and Takamine P3s.

One day when the money Gods shine on me I will relish a thin finish Martin Authentic.

By the way, I’ve been on the forum a long time. Today is the first time I looked at who participant Alan Carruthers is. Wow. Expertise indeed.

[DejaEntendu]

Originally Posted by Tenn

Open pore...open pour?

I have heard this term but have no clue what it is???

All I know is that if you play a guitar being built before the finish is put on, you will definitely hear a difference when the finish goes on....and not for the better.

Sometimes I prefer the open pore satin tone

[Italuke]

Yes, it makes a difference.

No, you can't hear it. (And right, there are NO double blind studies.)

[lowrider]

Originally Posted by Tenn

Open pore...open pour?

I have heard this term but have no clue what it is???

All I know is that if you play a guitar being built before the finish is put on, you will definitely hear a difference when the finish goes on....and not for the better.

Open pore is when they don't fill the pores in the wood of the guitar. Like this;



Open pour is when they fill your whole glass with Scotch!

[musicman1951]

Interesting question. I have no problem believing a thicker finish changes the tone of the guitar.

When shopping, I don't believe that from all the variables that go into each individual guitar tone anyone can determine that the finish is the deciding factor.

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by lowrider

Open pore is when they don't fill the pores in the wood of the guitar. Like this;



Open pour is when they fill your whole glass with Scotch!

I believe an open pour finish happens after about six open pours, give or take. If it happens under three, that’s considered a thin open pour finish. The sound of hitting the ground is more noticeable with a thin open pour finish.