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Old 02-25-2023, 07:18 AM
tdlwhite tdlwhite is offline
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Default Mic test - AT4050 OMNI vs KM184

After the last comparison, people here rightly suggested that the AT4050s could sound good in omni, rather than cardioid. So I recorded a practise with both again:



The KM184s spaced 12inches apart (slightly angled out to 14 fret and lower bout), 12 inches from the guitar. The 4050s were a little further back and wider - maybe 18 inches wide, 16 inches from guitar.

As usual, it's a Carl Miner TNAG demo tune that I'm working on.
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Old 02-25-2023, 08:09 AM
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Well, the omni AT4050s sounded good until I heard the KM184s, which (without hearing the actual guitar), sound exactly how I would expect that [Martin D] guitar to sound. Maybe it was the proximity due to the difference in patterns and distance, but they were my clear preference.

Nice playing, and I wish all demos were like this. Thanks.
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Old 02-25-2023, 08:22 AM
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I'm listening with headphones and the KMs seemed to cut out a lot of the depth of the recording. The AT4050 mics made me feel as though I was in the same room with you.
I don't understand why you wouldn't use the cardioid setting though.
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Old 02-25-2023, 09:32 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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This really isn't a comparison of omni vs cardioid so much as it's a comparison of Setup A vs Setup B.

As expected, a spaced cardioid pair a foot off the guitar yields a sound that minimizes the influence of the room compared to an omni pair 1.5 feet or so off the guitar. And the lower frequencies are more resonant in the spaced cardioid pair, that is also to be expected.

For acoustic guitar-centric music where the guitar is front and center either alone or sharing the spotlight with the vocals, I will almost always choose cardioid. If the guitar is going to be part of a bigger mix that includes some instrument that reaches lower frequencies than the guitar, omni can be a good choice (provided the room doesn't make the recording sound too harsh) because sometimes a thinner sound sits better in the mix.

tdlwhite, can you tell us something about the room dimensions and treatment?
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Old 02-25-2023, 12:05 PM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBman View Post
I'm listening with headphones and the KMs seemed to cut out a lot of the depth of the recording. The AT4050 mics made me feel as though I was in the same room with you.
I don't understand why you wouldn't use the cardioid setting though.
I am not a Martin expert, although I owned a D35 for around 25 years. But Yes, I agree this does sound more of what I think some Martins sound like. Bass heavy.

I also own a pair of 4050's and I also find them much more pleasing in Omni than in Cardiod. Much more natural sounding.

I would be very interested in learning what tdlwhite's feelings are, about which mics represents the true sound of his Guitars?

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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
For acoustic guitar-centric music where the guitar is front and center either alone or sharing the spotlight with the vocals, I will almost always choose cardioid. If the guitar is going to be part of a bigger mix that includes some instrument that reaches lower frequencies than the guitar, omni can be a good choice (provided the room doesn't make the recording sound too harsh) because sometimes a thinner sound sits better in the mix.
Once again I think jim1960 is spot on. I know I love all of those late 60's & 70's acoustic Guitar Recordings, Gordon Lightfoot, Pete Townsend, Cat Stevens, CSNY, where the trebles were fat and stood out. And that is where the 84's shined. They are faster transient wise, when compared to large diaphram mics. And they cut out the conflicting low end. Small Diaphragms are usually more defined.

However, sometimes it is not about the difference between SDC & LDC, but rather the specific Characteristics of a particular mic. Cause I also love the sound of a U67 on acoustic guitar.

O.K how about one more test? Use all four mics. Position the the Neumann's directly on top of each of the 4050's in Omni(so hopefully no phasing issues that way?). I wonder what that would produce? Or how about a mid side? With the 4050 in Fig 8, and the 184 on top? I have not done any tests like this myself. However, I once did a quick test with the 4050's on top of each other. One in cardiod and one in omni. Had a pleasant sound to it. Pretty much stop using the 4050's when I got my Schoeps pair.

Great Demo! Keep em coming.
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Old 02-25-2023, 12:06 PM
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Could be interesting to hear the omni's quite a bit closer to the guitar too, like six to eight inches. One cool thing omni is that is a lot less proximity effect so you get much closer before worrying about boom. I think in the classical world folks do a spaced pair further out because they're likely in a church or something and want that space's natural reverb baked in. In our little home recording spaces we're more likely avoiding having the room sound in there.
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Old 02-25-2023, 03:04 PM
tdlwhite tdlwhite is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keith.rogers View Post
Well, the omni AT4050s sounded good until I heard the KM184s, which (without hearing the actual guitar), sound exactly how I would expect that [Martin D] guitar to sound. Maybe it was the proximity due to the difference in patterns and distance, but they were my clear preference.

Nice playing, and I wish all demos were like this. Thanks.
Thanks - I'm really used to the sound of the KM184s, because I use them a bunch, so to start with the 4050s sounded a bit thin. BUT - I'm still learning where to put the 4050s, so it's not a 'fair' compare!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBman View Post
I'm listening with headphones and the KMs seemed to cut out a lot of the depth of the recording. The AT4050 mics made me feel as though I was in the same room with you.
I don't understand why you wouldn't use the cardioid setting though.
Yes - I think the wider spacing of the 4050s has given more stereo width/depth. I went omni because my first test was in cardioid and others suggested to try omni!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
This really isn't a comparison of omni vs cardioid so much as it's a comparison of Setup A vs Setup B.

As expected, a spaced cardioid pair a foot off the guitar yields a sound that minimizes the influence of the room compared to an omni pair 1.5 feet or so off the guitar. And the lower frequencies are more resonant in the spaced cardioid pair, that is also to be expected.

For acoustic guitar-centric music where the guitar is front and center either alone or sharing the spotlight with the vocals, I will almost always choose cardioid. If the guitar is going to be part of a bigger mix that includes some instrument that reaches lower frequencies than the guitar, omni can be a good choice (provided the room doesn't make the recording sound too harsh) because sometimes a thinner sound sits better in the mix.

tdlwhite, can you tell us something about the room dimensions and treatment?
Agree agree! The room is a 15x15 box with a window on my left, thick carpeted floor plus an extra rug under me. I'm in a corner, sitting 4/5 feet from a wall with 3 tall gobos (3inch thick, over 6ft high pro things) behind me in a semi-circle - my back nearly touches them. 8ft ceilings, a single bed on my right (4 feet away, and a spare mattress to. Tbh, I've got a bunch to do regarding treatment - for example, I wouldn't try to record straight voice-over stuff in here (without re-jigging stuff) it's too bouncy rn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcousticDreams View Post
I am not a Martin expert, ...
I also own a pair of 4050's and I also find them much more pleasing in Omni than in Cardiod. Much more natural sounding.

I would be very interested in learning what tdlwhite's feelings are, about which mics represents the true sound of his Guitars?

O.K how about one more test? Use all four mics. Position the the Neumann's directly on top of each of the 4050's in Omni(so hopefully no phasing issues that way?). I wonder what that would produce?

Great Demo! Keep em coming.
Thanks! I really like the KM184s for capturing what I hear from my perspective while playing. But I did like the slightly more 'in the room' sound of the 4050s on this recording - and I can see that it might be preferential in come circumstances.

I shall likely do another (another) test as you said, with the 4050s/184s on top of each other. Fun!

Quote:
Originally Posted by min7b5 View Post
Could be interesting to hear the omni's quite a bit closer to the guitar too, like six to eight inches. One cool thing omni is that is a lot less proximity effect so you get much closer before worrying about boom. ...
...In our little home recording spaces we're more likely avoiding having the room sound in there.
Yes - I'll try the 4050s in omni close at some point. I had kinda figured further back might suit, but the idea of getting them close with less proximity effect sounds good.

Thanks everyone for the feedback/comments - all very good food for thought!

Tom
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Old 02-25-2023, 09:23 PM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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I have a pair of Audio Technica AT4050 mics and they are very nice. When I have used them for guitar, I have tended to use them in omni mode, also. That way there is no proximity effect and because of that they can be located closer to the guitar, which provides a little extra something, at least for me when finger picking.

In the end, though, I have transitioned to decent quality small diaphragm condensers, in my case, Warm Audio WA-84 mics, which are cardoid mics.

I enjoyed your playing, Tom!

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Old 02-26-2023, 10:07 AM
j3ffr0 j3ffr0 is offline
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I enjoyed your playing and this comparison.

I don't have anything bad to say about either version. Somehow, the AT4050s in omni mode seemed open and natural. Yet I felt a little more immersed in the recording with the KM184s.

I would also enjoy hearing the omni on the 4050 closer in.
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Old 02-26-2023, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j3ffr0 View Post
I enjoyed your playing and this comparison.

I don't have anything bad to say about either version. Somehow, the AT4050s in omni mode seemed open and natural. Yet I felt a little more immersed in the recording with the KM184s.
... [snip]...
I agree with this. I had a bit of a preference for the omni, for being more open and natural, but also for what I feel is a better representation of the bass complexity. The KM184 seems more focused, accentuated but less complex bass, and overall a more forward sounding recording.

However, moving the KM184 back (even a bit further than the omni) may make the recordings more similar.
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Old 02-26-2023, 11:57 AM
Hoyt Hoyt is offline
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Both mic setups sound good. In fact, I don't much difference in the two, other than one being a bit more open sounding. Nice video, playing, and guitar.
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Old 02-26-2023, 12:24 PM
tdlwhite tdlwhite is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennwillow View Post
I have a pair of Audio Technica AT4050 mics and they are very nice. When I have used them for guitar, I have tended to use them in omni mode, also. That way there is no proximity effect and because of that they can be located closer to the guitar, which provides a little extra something, at least for me when finger picking.

In the end, though, I have transitioned to decent quality small diaphragm condensers, in my case, Warm Audio WA-84 mics, which are cardoid mics.

I enjoyed your playing, Tom!

- Glenn
Thanks Glenn! I'm happy with my KM184s, but it's nice to do a bit of experimenting, and it looks like next time I'll try the 4050s closer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by j3ffr0 View Post
I enjoyed your playing and this comparison.

I don't have anything bad to say about either version. Somehow, the AT4050s in omni mode seemed open and natural. Yet I felt a little more immersed in the recording with the KM184s.

I would also enjoy hearing the omni on the 4050 closer in.
Thanks! I really like the KM184s, but I'll be trying the 4050s out again soon I Think!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
I agree with this. I had a bit of a preference for the omni, for being more open and natural, but also for what I feel is a better representation of the bass complexity. The KM184 seems more focused, accentuated but less complex bass, and overall a more forward sounding recording.

However, moving the KM184 back (even a bit further than the omni) may make the recordings more similar.
Yes - the 184s were more forward sounding - I agree. I have tried a few diffferent positions for the KM184s, and for this recording I used my 'easiest' setup - both mics on a bar on the same stand. I've got a whole bunch more things to try with them, some of which I'll do once I've made some more insulating panels for the room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoyt View Post
Both mic setups sound good. In fact, I don't much difference in the two, other than one being a bit more open sounding. Nice video, playing, and guitar.
Thanks! Yeah, the D41 is a beauty - both to play and to listen to. It's nice have the ability to capture it in reasonable form too!
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Old 02-26-2023, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by min7b5 View Post
Could be interesting to hear the omni's quite a bit closer to the guitar too, like six to eight inches. One cool thing omni is that is a lot less proximity effect so you get much closer before worrying about boom. I think in the classical world folks do a spaced pair further out because they're likely in a church or something and want that space's natural reverb baked in. In our little home recording spaces we're more likely avoiding having the room sound in there.
Omnis have no proximity effect at all. BTW - Even in my nearly totally dead room, I record good classical guitars from a distance. They just sound better that way.
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Old 03-03-2023, 09:23 AM
tdlwhite tdlwhite is offline
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Default updated recording with the 4050s in omni

Apologies for the possible double-post*, but after posting in show/tell, I realized that this thread had the earlier 4050 recording and might be worth updating with the new recording:



This is the AT4050s in omni, much closer to the guitar (closer than my KM184s, so mebbe 8-10 inches off the neck-join and 10-12 off the mid-lower-bout).

I did add a little compression/verb here - which is my 'normal' post-processing VST work in Reaper (DAW).

I like this sound - so I'm pleased that the comments in this thread and the old one prompted me to try more stuff with the AT 4050s! Thanks all!

Tom

*mods: if you need to delete one of the vids or posts, then I guess this one can go, and I'll reference the show/tell one?
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Old 03-03-2023, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by RRuskin View Post
Omnis have no proximity effect at all. BTW - Even in my nearly totally dead room, I record good classical guitars from a distance. They just sound better that way.
So do you record the classicals at a distance in omni or cardioid?

I've been recording at a distance in cardioid and I like the tone.
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