I am thinking about my first build?

[Jimhar]

Originally Posted by koolimy

I heard that Western Red Cedar and Redwood can have difficulties with gluing, splitting, and denting, so I would avoid it for your first build. Spruce is generally pretty easy so I would go for one of the Spruces.

If you haven't done so already, I would classify the pieces of wood by comparing their weights and their flexibility. If you can take measurements and get values for stuff like modulus of elasticity, that would be really helpful. Hopefully somebody can help you take measurements if you are so inclined.

But even if you don't take measurements, at least I would see which top is heavier, which top is more flexible, etc. That'll help guide you as you decide which top you are going to use for which guitar. As Mr. Arnold mentioned, you need to understand what type of guitar you are making and what you'll be using it for. If you want to create a size 0 guitar for fingerstyle, you'll probably want a light piece of wood. If you want a dreadnought for bluegrass picking, you'll probably want to go heavier.

Thanks for the heads up on the cedar and redwood difficulties. Good to know and I think I may shy away from the Redwood for this first build. I do have other choices that I can use and probably would be smart to do so. I only have one of the redwood tops anyway. Why risk it. I have just started on the process of storing my wood inventory in some manner that will enable me to know where each piece of wood is and lay my hands on it when needed. It will serve me well to incorporate some of the various woods characteristics into the system to have that info readily in front of me for consideration.

Thanks Jim

[Jimhar]

Originally Posted by ProfChris

Straight grained koa usually bends quite easily.

Figured koa needs much more care - if there is a lot of curl then that is where it is likely to separate during bending. A metal bending strap is a must for curly grain, and even then there is some risk.

If this is your first time bending then you won't yet have the feel for when to pause and when to carry on. I'd suggest some practice bending - walnut bends about as easily as koa and is fairly cheap. You could cut a practice side in half and put as many tight bends as you can in each part. Then maybe do the same with mahogany, which can be quite tricky (or dead easy, it's a lottery!). Read up different techniques (soaking, spritzing, spraying dry, using SuperSoft) and try some out.

I'm saying all this because koa is hard to get, and matching your back if you break a side is likely near impossible.

The other point is thicknessing figured koa - I find the figure can sometimes tear out very easily, so you'll want to practice planing with a close set cap iron, and scraping, so you have an armoury of techniques to avoid this.

I have not yet practiced bending sides yet but as you say I have read that certain woods are trying and others are no problem. I guess it on me to take some lumps along the way if I don't pay proper attention to these heads up you are all cautioning me about. Do you find that thicknessing these more fragile woods are less likely to tear out using a drum sander or do certain woods just require more attention than even a drum sander can provide?

Thanks Jim

[printer2]

On a first build I would use wood that you would not fret over too much if you had binding that was not quite even, gaps in the rosette, chip out of the top edge... . Some people can nail their first guitar without any obvious defects, the rest of us do better on our second.

[Jimhar]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

By all-Koa, I meant the Koa top, not the back and sides. Koa is a pretty ordinary back and side material, as far as the work goes. Hardwood tops are more variable from one piece to another and require evolved judgement skills if the guitar is to be properly functional. No one is likely to develop a big-picture guitar making concept w/o making quite a few guitars. One step at a time.

I can certainly appreciate the point you make about putting in the time as a way of putting one on solid ground in their knowledge of their chosen endeavor. I have found that this principal applied to most undertakings in my life. I have learned much by doing things and the process evolves into that big picture concept if one continues to expand their knowledge base in this way. I hate it when this process becomes a situation where by I am learning from my mistakes. Hopefully I can avoid going down that road again as I have gone there plenty already. It is a lesson learned though! I do like to enjoy the journey. And i do most of the time by choosing the path that I WANT to follow and that is a much more enjoyable way to proceed and life is much better.

Thanks Jim

[Jimhar]

Originally Posted by printer2

On a first build I would use wood that you would not fret over too much if you had binding that was not quite even, gaps in the rosette, chip out of the top edge... . Some people can nail their first guitar without any obvious defects, the rest of us do better on our second.

I know that this build is going to bring to light my most glaring shortcomings. As you say it would be less worry from picking a wood that is easy to work with and avoid the harder troubling type woods. This would make for a quicker easier path to success for sure. I do think that maybe it could lead to one dropping their guard and becoming burdened with careless errors. On the other hand isn't recovery from ones mistakes a part of the process? Well except for those who make NO mistakes. hehehe That wouldn't be me!

[koolimy]

Originally Posted by Jimhar

I know that this build is going to bring to light my most glaring shortcomings. As you say it would be less worry from picking a wood that is easy to work with and avoid the harder troubling type woods. This would make for a quicker easier path to success for sure. I do think that maybe it could lead to one dropping their guard and becoming burdened with careless errors. On the other hand isn't recovery from ones mistakes a part of the process? Well except for those who make NO mistakes. hehehe That wouldn't be me!

Mr. Printer2's comments resonate really strongly with me, LOL. I really like my first guitar, but now that I have built my second, I like my second guitar a lot more. It still is a bad, ugly guitar, but it's a lot better than my first.

I'm not saying that your first guitar will be bad. Many people build really good guitars from the getgo. But there is no doubt it will be YOUR worst.

So there's a bit of a dilemma. I always think it's best to go with the specs you want, because guitar building is a long and arduous process with lots of setbacks and frustration. You'll need something that'll keep you motivated and keep your spirits up, and that could be as simple as enjoying the beauty of the wood you are working with.

At the same time, the first guitar will be your worst. So if you have a really beautiful or valuable piece, you might want to save it for when you get better.

There are a few additional things I wouldn't do, however. For the top, I think Birch is a hardwood similar to Maple. I think it's much easier starting out with a softwood, so I would leave Birch for another guitar. For the B&S, I would try to avoid the highly figured woods for now as they can present additional challenges.

I would go to wood-database.com and do searches on the woods you have. See if there are any comments on the stability and workability of the woods. If there are woods that seemingly like to twist and turn for no reason, you should avoid that for your first build. If some woods like to split and crack, you should probably avoid that too.

In the end if you can't decide it's pretty easy to recommend the tried and true combos of Sitka or Adirondack Spruce for the top and Mahogany, Maple, or East Indian Rosewood for the back and sides. They all have the characteristics of decent stability, workability, beauty, and tonal familiarity. Of course, you want to actually measure the tops because it's possible that the Englemann piece is the heaviest while the Adirondack piece is the lightest.

[Carey]

I pretty much agree with koolimy's post. Sitka and mahogany (or walnut!)
are good choices for a first guitar. Building will show much more than theorizing.

[Fathand]

I am building my guitars #8 and 9 did a few ukes and a mandiolin, 13 banjos and 5 solid electrics partly as skill building before starting acoustic guitars in 2019.

I still remember some of the challenges. Easiest woods to bend and work with I find are black walnut and rosewood but the walnut is a lot cheaper and readily found quartered. You can buy it for like $10-12 a board foot and cut your own backs and sides, makes a good neck too. I never see rosewood suitable at $50 per board foot so I buy pre cut sets for $100 +. I got used to Honduran mahogany fairly quick, it's a bit pricey but I cut my own sets so that helps.

Smaller guitars are easier to build and less sanding. Modestly ornamented guitars are easier to build and sound just as good. Figured wood is more $, trickier to work and bend and doesn't sound any better.

You do not need to keep buying specialty tools. A lot can be done with standard wood working tools. A lot of jigs and specialty tools, etc. can be built yourself. Amazon and Lee Valley are sometimes a better buy than luthier houses.

I found this book the most helpful of several books I have bought
https://www.amazon.com/Acoustic-Guit.../dp/149220644X

I understand only too well the over analyzing thing. You have purchased a lot of inventory, it's time to get some plans and start building. You can do a lot of analyzing along the way. There are decent free plans at Grellier, unfortunately no Dreadnoughts.
https://www.grellier.fr/en/downloads

Good Luck on your journey.

[phavriluk]

There is this topic of tooling expense and amortization. Setting up to build one guitar involves just as much equipment, space, and investment as tooling up to build a hundred. The dollar cost of materials for any one guitar is trivial compared to the cost of being able to turn that lumber into a guitar.

[Jimhar]

Originally Posted by phavriluk

There is this topic of tooling expense and amortization. Setting up to build one guitar involves just as much equipment, space, and investment as tooling up to build a hundred. The dollar cost of materials for any one guitar is trivial compared to the cost of being able to turn that lumber into a guitar.

Interesting topic. Is that a discussion that is in this forum somewhere? Would be a good read.

[H165]

Top Wood: Sitka, Adirondack, Engelmann, Birch, Sinker Redwood, Cedar

B/S sets: Honduran Mahogany,Wenge, Koa, Black Limba, Padauk, Brazilian
Tigerwood, Bubinga, Maple, East Indian Rosewood, Quilted
Mahogany, Monkeypod, Goncaloalves, Purple Heart, Brazilian
cherry,Honduran Rosewood, Zebrawood, Mahogany Figured

I have been spending time setting up my shop and getting needed specialty tools and along the way acquiring some wood. I'm just now getting somewhat able to breathe. There isn't an end to buying things you need is there?

This sounds like you've just changed the topic to "starting a guitar building business". If you're actually thinking of "first build" size D I'd go with Indian rosewood or a good mahogany, and sitka spruce. If you're starting a business (building for the general market) I'd still recommend these two woods.

Save your Honduran for your own personal guitar - I think you'll like that stuff

[printer2]

Originally Posted by phavriluk

There is this topic of tooling expense and amortization. Setting up to build one guitar involves just as much equipment, space, and investment as tooling up to build a hundred. The dollar cost of materials for any one guitar is trivial compared to the cost of being able to turn that lumber into a guitar.

Not necessarily. I built a guitar as an experiment of what little I could get away with in building a guitar. Resawed some wood with an old handsaw, planed it with a cheap block plane. I did cheat a little once I proved the concept, running the board on a table saw to reduce how much hand sawing needed to be done, put the stock through my drum sander (at the time I had a hand injury and needed to reduce the stress on it). Other than a few clamps I found I needed a vice to hold parts and a drill press to do the tuner holes. A few files, coping saw, caliper and common hand tools got the job done. Only a Romantic era sized guitar but I was just proving a concept. Mind you I have built a few guitars by this time and was reasonably competent at building. The one thing I would add to expand on what could be done would be a trim router. Other than that things like my basic metal bandsaw and home built drum sander just speeds up the work.

Originally Posted by Jimhar

Interesting topic. Is that a discussion that is in this forum somewhere? Would be a good read.

Been covered a number of times in this section of the forum.

[Jimhar]

Originally Posted by H165

This sounds like you've just changed the topic to "starting a guitar building business". If you're actually thinking of "first build" size D I'd go with Indian rosewood or a good mahogany, and sitka spruce. If you're starting a business (building for the general market) I'd still recommend these two woods.

Save your Honduran for your own personal guitar - I think you'll like that stuff

Well this question is related to my first build and in my responses to some reply here it may be spilling out that I intend to build more guitars than this one. I guess number 2 is a certainty as well and even though I may have aspirations beyond that I will just let those chips fall where they may. I have always let the pleasure that I derive from any activity, be it work or play, guide my continued interest in said activity. I do have a fair amount of tops and b/s sets that I have acquired in responding to adds for items that I wanted on the internet and did end up unable to turn down some of the deals I ran across in those transactions. The wood inventory that I mentioned here is a result of some of those transactions. As you say that you would save the Honduran for my personal guitar Some of those other woods mentioned in the inventory are are quite nice also. Much of the mahogany I have is figured or quilted as well as bearclaw spruces and flamed tops and backs as well. Having read about the difficulties of working with some of these types of woods I was inspired to ask this question on this forum as I have seen that there are some builders here of vast knowledge that are willing to share their expertise with others.

So I guess I am just another guy that wants to build some guitars at this point . Before I do build something for someone else I do want to know more than what I now know for sure about the trade. But I'm pretty sure I will continue to like building guitars and may very well pursue it more seriously in the future. I appreciate your input immensely and am glad you pointed that out about the mahogany!

thanks Jim

[Jimhar]

I very much appreciate all of the comments offered up on this thread. I looked seriously at my inventory and I have a question regarding a potential selection of materials for this build. What I have found is a spruce top that has been glued up prior to me purchasing the materials and there was also a mahogany back glued up as well and also a pair of sides to go with the back that were still in the form they were bent on. I would say that the top and back both jointed by others look fine as far as the glue joints. No light is visible through the joint when held up to a light but the thickness may require some work and I did notice some tear out on only one side of the back. The bent sides do have some cracking on the inner side of the waste bend. It appears to have been over bent very sharply and in the form just as a place to store it maybe. When I removed it to inspect it I saw the cracking in the waste inside of one side and this sharp over bending that was present. I don't know if that can or should be dealt with. Just how should I proceed to re bend these to a proper shape. I have a frame that I could use for the shape and I have a side bender heater but I don't have a set of stainless steel side bending sheets and heating blanket. Those I could get if necessary and have thought about getting but just have not pulled the trigger yet on them. These sides do have quite a bit of spring back on both of the upper and lower bouts also. It seems clear to me that these sides do need to see heat and some moisture to get them to the right shape. The waste has more of a crease than a bend so it needs to be carefully heated and reshaped and the upper and lower just need some more bend placed on them and clamping to get a more proper shape with much less spring back. So this choice does come with some challenges. My challenge of re-bending the waste and probably effecting a repair to the crack which is splintering outward would only show on the inside of the guitar but what would the setup for such a repair be? I don't know if finding replacement sides would be difficult but maybe that would be a better solution than trying to use these.

Thanks Jim

[H165]

I'd try to re-use the sides just for the sake of keeping things simple. If it doesn't work, you have a backup plan.

The appearance of springback with many woods can come from incorrect mold dimensions (bending forms slightly too large) or insufficient cooling time undisturbed in the press or mold after bending.

Cracking/splintering you describe can come from difficult grain, too-thick wood, too-fast bending, too-cold bending, to name a few.

I have re-bent many sets of wood using my Fox-design bender. It's actually easier than the original bends. Heat must be consistent and correct for the wood. Often between 240ºF and 300ºF AT THE BEND (not just near it). I use a long-probe meat thermometer with a thin flexible cable to get the heat right.

It is difficult to make kinks go away. You must have a very smooth form surface and a very smooth matching caul surface (these are often the stainless steel slats you mention). If these are not smooth and matched, increased clamping pressure is one solution, but higher pressure causes other problems like form distortion and unwanted embossed impressions in the wood. Patience is a big help, but the biggest help is consistent correct heat. If the wood get to hot or too cool while you are slowly tightening the press, bad things may happen. Don't tighten the press too much - just until full contact is made between all surfaces in the sandwich (press waist caul, heater, slat, paper, wood, paper, slat, form waist).

I would not even attempt taking out kinks on a bending pipe - I do not have enough education or hours on the pipe or in observation of the process.

I've had faceting and cracking happen on the outside of the curve (inside the guitar in the waist area). If it's not too bad, I use 120-220 sandpaper on a block, and West Systems epoxy filled with the correct color sawdust, to shape and fill the problem areas. As you say, few people will be looking at this.