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Old 05-18-2023, 04:58 AM
pjbelsch pjbelsch is offline
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Default Scales and modes

What is your recommended resource for learning scales, modes and playing through the circle of 5ths. I’ve been in pentatonic hell and am losing creativity because of my limited knowledge.
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Old 05-18-2023, 05:17 AM
JonPR JonPR is online now
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Originally Posted by pjbelsch View Post
What is your recommended resource for learning scales, modes and playing through the circle of 5ths. I’ve been in pentatonic hell and am losing creativity because of my limited knowledge.
My recommendation:

1. Learn songs

2. Play the melody and chords in the song

3. Practice whatever scale(s) you can determine from the melody and chords.

4. Transpose the song to as many other keys as you want, and do the same thing (play the melody, chords, and scale). No need to go through the whole circle of 5ths, the common guitar keys ought to be enough: C, G, D, A, E and their relative minors. Maybe F major/ D minor too. (This is an important exercise if it's a song you want to sing, so you can choose the best key for your voice. And of course you can use a capo for any otherwise awkward keys. It's not cheating!)

Forget about modes! Especially don't think of fretboard patterns as modes: that way lies endless confusion.

Any one scale runs all over the fretboard, and of course we break it down into playable "positions" coverig a few frets each so we can play the scale in any one place without moving our hand up and down the neck.
But every position can be any mode, that's just down to which notes in the pattern are treated as keynotes. And that's determined by the song you are playing.

IOW, a "mode" is something like a "key", in which a piece of music is written. Modal terms are analytical tools, for describing some pieces of music, and have no bearing at all on playing music. Like keys, they are useful concepts when composing your own music, but all you need when playing a piece of music is to know the chords and the tune; the notes in it. Even when improvising, you don't really need to know the key (or mode), as long as you know all the chords, and any additional notes in the melody. (And if you don't know all the chords, knowing the key won't help...)

If you want to understand modes, you need to listen to some music which is written in modes, to hear how it differs from music written in major or minor keys. Often the difference is very subtle, and it's not worth worrying about. But sometimes a tune has a very distinctive sound - such as a drone, or a one-chord groove, or two chords alternating - and modal terms can be useful in describing that, if you want distinguish it in some way from key terms.

In short, there are two routes here:

(1) is mastering the fretboard, learning all the notes and chord shapes and scale patterns. That's technique. I mean, partially theory in terms of note and chord names, but mainly technical in how you memorize positions and fingerings. Chord shapes are your friends there, btw, for mapping the fretboard.

(2) is understanding music well enough to play it (or compose it or improvise on it). That's theory. The important point here is not to think of "theory" as a bunch of abstract terminology, baffling jargon that has to be understood. Theory is the grammar of the language of music - and you can learn it all by ear, just by learning to play more and more songs.
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Old 05-18-2023, 05:58 AM
pjbelsch pjbelsch is offline
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Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
My recommendation:

1. Learn songs

2. Play the melody and chords in the song

3. Practice whatever scale(s) you can determine from the melody and chords.

4. Transpose the song to as many other keys as you want, and do the same thing (play the melody, chords, and scale). No need to go through the whole circle of 5ths, the common guitar keys ought to be enough: C, G, D, A, E and their relative minors. Maybe F major/ D minor too. (This is an important exercise if it's a song you want to sing, so you can choose the best key for your voice. And of course you can use a capo for any otherwise awkward keys. It's not cheating!)

Forget about modes! Especially don't think of fretboard patterns as modes: that way lies endless confusion.

Any one scale runs all over the fretboard, and of course we break it down into playable "positions" coverig a few frets each so we can play the scale in any one place without moving our hand up and down the neck.
But every position can be any mode, that's just down to which notes in the pattern are treated as keynotes. And that's determined by the song you are playing.

IOW, a "mode" is something like a "key", in which a piece of music is written. Modal terms are analytical tools, for describing some pieces of music, and have no bearing at all on playing music. Like keys, they are useful concepts when composing your own music, but all you need when playing a piece of music is to know the chords and the tune; the notes in it. Even when improvising, you don't really need to know the key (or mode), as long as you know all the chords, and any additional notes in the melody. (And if you don't know all the chords, knowing the key won't help...)

If you want to understand modes, you need to listen to some music which is written in modes, to hear how it differs from music written in major or minor keys. Often the difference is very subtle, and it's not worth worrying about. But sometimes a tune has a very distinctive sound - such as a drone, or a one-chord groove, or two chords alternating - and modal terms can be useful in describing that, if you want distinguish it in some way from key terms.

In short, there are two routes here:

(1) is mastering the fretboard, learning all the notes and chord shapes and scale patterns. That's technique. I mean, partially theory in terms of note and chord names, but mainly technical in how you memorize positions and fingerings. Chord shapes are your friends there, btw, for mapping the fretboard.

(2) is understanding music well enough to play it (or compose it or improvise on it). That's theory. The important point here is not to think of "theory" as a bunch of abstract terminology, baffling jargon that has to be understood. Theory is the grammar of the language of music - and you can learn it all by ear, just by learning to play more and more songs.
Thanks for this. And what you mentioned is actually how I learned with improvisation. I have a great ear (not to be arrogant) and can pick up a melody ona fretboard in an instant. I guess what I’m struggling with is being able to pick up the guitar and play cools blues stuff without any music around me. I find when I’m playing to music or with a group I shine it’s on my own and just me myself and I and I can’t seem to play any good licks or such. It’s hard to explain..I’m not a blues player I’m a worship guitar player so a lot of blues techniques and soloing techniques and finesse I never learned.
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Old 05-18-2023, 06:41 AM
JonPR JonPR is online now
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Originally Posted by pjbelsch View Post
a lot of blues techniques and soloing techniques and finesse I never learned.
Well, there's your answer!
And the way to learn that is to find the music that sounds like you want to sound, and listen and copy.
That's where the vocabulary you need comes from: melodies, riffs, licks and solos.
Your ear seems to be good enough to do that, so it's just about expanding the music you listen to, and copying anything that catches your ear. You also need the chords, of course, to understand why those notes were chosen - how they work with and against the harmony - so you can apply the licks in other contexts.

The thing with blues in particular is that's quite hard to theorize about it using western terminology - it makes it seem a whole lot more complicated than it really is, because notes are bent in the blues, which doesn't make sense in western (classical) theory. Same with jazz rhythms, swing and so on. You can't write that down, you have to learn it by listening and copying - over and over.

And the point about copying what you like (not just things that other people tell you to learn), is that that's how you develop your own "voice", by finding phrases that catch your ear and seem to speak to you.
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Old 05-18-2023, 06:54 AM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Well, if you're looking to play blues, stay the heck away from scales and modes!

Just kidding. Well, actually I'm not.

There's a lot to that pentatonic scale...listen to great players and copy what they do (use that great ear!) You'll see even though just about every note they play can be traced back to that blues scale, they weigh notes in terms of importance differently over different chords.

That's the key. Play the changes. Know the strong notes over every chord, and target them. There's no magic scale that has the answers. The chords to the tune do, right there.
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Old 05-18-2023, 07:29 AM
Bluenose Bluenose is offline
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Are you familiar with dominant 7th arpeggios? A dom 7th arpeggio in A (for example) has the notes A (root), C#(maj 3rd), E (5th), D(dom 7th). Something to practice that may help you get around the fretboard. Something else is to be aware of is that there are 2 pentatonic scales, major and minor and many great blues solos notably by EC and others utilize both of these scales.

Last edited by Bluenose; 05-18-2023 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 05-18-2023, 09:03 AM
BlueStarfish BlueStarfish is offline
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Regarding learning scales and modes, here’s where I am in my journey:

Scales — learn the CAGED key scales in open 1st / 2nd (open) positions inside and out. That is, C, A, G, E, and D. In circle-of-fifths order, C-G-D-A-E but that doesn’t make a catchy acronym. From the lowest to the highest note on the fretboard that is available in each of 1st and 2nd position.

Then, learn them “folded” with a variety of folding patterns.

Then, learn them not starting on the root note. That C scale — start it on D instead. Hey, that’s D Dorian! Start it on G instead. Hey, that’s G Mixolydian. Start it on A instead — it’s A Aeolian, better known as A minor. You get the idea.

The major and minor pentatonics are in there too, just a few fewer notes. And the minor and major blues scales, and bebop scale too, with a few more notes.

Next phase of the journey, I’ll work up the to neck to fully closed positions, but am not in a hurry. I would argue that, for an acoustic-only player, the open position scales are actually more useful than the closed ones, so start with the open positions. Probably the reverse for electric players.

BTW I strongly disagree with the suggestion that you don’t need to know the keys or modes, it’s sufficient to just know what chord is being played at a particular time in the song … sorry but that’s bad advice.
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Old 05-18-2023, 09:22 AM
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When you're playing over a dominant 7th, you flatten the 7.
Since now you'd have "whole, whole, half, whole, whole, half, whole",
I think you'd be playing in a mixolydian mode.

-Mike
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Old 05-18-2023, 09:22 AM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueStarfish View Post

BTW I strongly disagree with the suggestion that you don’t need to know the keys or modes, it’s sufficient to just know what chord is being played at a particular time in the song … sorry but that’s bad advice.

Is it though?

The chords have a ton of information in them...I'm not saying just know the shapes--know the notes! Know the arpeggios, and how to extend them past the 7th. Know how chromatic notes can be used to approach and enclose chord tones.

Scales and chords aren't really separate things. And if you want to play convincing leads, you need to understand that what makes a note sound strong over a chord...guide tones. You don't need a bunch of scales and modes to play the blues. What you do need is knowledge of the fretboard and how to access those notes that sound strong all over.

If you think that's bad advice, I don't know what to tell you.

Re: mixolydian mode-- yes, that's the chord scale for a 7th chord.

It's also not bluesy sounding at all.
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Old 05-18-2023, 10:10 AM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Some of it's time, too. As in rhythm. If you keep the tempo and the feel rock steady, everything you play will sound more "valid."
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Old 05-18-2023, 10:19 AM
JonPR JonPR is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueStarfish View Post
Regarding learning scales and modes, here’s where I am in my journey:

Scales — learn the CAGED key scales in open 1st / 2nd (open) positions inside and out. That is, C, A, G, E, and D. In circle-of-fifths order, C-G-D-A-E but that doesn’t make a catchy acronym. From the lowest to the highest note on the fretboard that is available in each of 1st and 2nd position.

Then, learn them “folded” with a variety of folding patterns.
All good. (Though you need to explain "folded" and "folding", for me anyway.)
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Then, learn them not starting on the root note. That C scale — start it on D instead. Hey, that’s D Dorian! Start it on G instead. Hey, that’s G Mixolydian. Start it on A instead — it’s A Aeolian, better known as A minor. You get the idea.
Sorry but this is not so good.
I mean, yes it's important to practice scales starting on different notes (and in many other ways), but that's not modes. Modes are a whole lot more than just "a scale starting on another note".
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Originally Posted by BlueStarfish View Post
Next phase of the journey, I’ll work up the to neck to fully closed positions, but am not in a hurry. I would argue that, for an acoustic-only player, the open position scales are actually more useful than the closed ones, so start with the open positions. Probably the reverse for electric players.
Actually I'd say the same for electric players. Learning open position thoroughly first (the CAGED system as you say) is the best foundation for understanding higher positions. Electric lead players obviously play high on the neck often, but if you don't understand what you are doing (if you've just learned some patterns) then you're relying totally on your ear. And that depends how good your ear is...
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Originally Posted by BlueStarfish View Post
BTW I strongly disagree with the suggestion that you don’t need to know the keys or modes, it’s sufficient to just know what chord is being played at a particular time in the song … sorry but that’s bad advice.
OK, let me try and be clear here.

You need to know a song thoroughly, in order to improvise on it. That means having the chord progression memorized, and ideally the melody too (not essential but very useful). Having it under your fingers from playing it, not just in your head from notation or tab. You then have everything you need, because all the notes you need are there in your hands, in the chord shapes. Passing notes between the chord tones come from the chords either side - that's how you know the "scale" involved (without having to identify it). And chromatic passing notes are always an option anyway.

I mean, there are strategies there for how to treat all those notes, ways of phrasing and targeting chord tones, extensions and so on, in order to sound good - which comes from experience. But identifying what key or mode the song is in is peripheral information. Of course, if you can do so, that gives you a useful overview, but it's so common to find chromatic chords that the key is only a very rough guide as to the scale at any point. You can certainly think "key" but be alert to chromatic alteration when it turns up, and not be confused by it. But then you're back to just following the chords.

At the same time, you don't view each chord as a separate scale or mode! (Unless it really is modal jazz you are playing.) Chord progressions work as sequences, implying a shared scale or at least a bunch of notes in common. If the chords are all under your fingers (ideally all in the same position), that's your route map through the song. Superimpose the chord shapes on one another, and that's the "scale" - whether you can name it or not, those are all the notes you can use.

I'm not talking anything complicated here. It's all hands on, literally. If you can play the song, then you have all you need to improvise on it. You just play it your way, inventing new phrases out of the notes in the song. I'm not against learning theory, obviously, but theoretical description and analysis comes later, if at all.
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Old 05-18-2023, 10:41 AM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is offline
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Well, if you're looking to play blues, stay the heck away from scales and modes!
I think there's quite some sense to that in many respects. I can recall one of those mythical anecdotes where Muddy Waters was asked at a session what notes he was playing for a riff, and he replied "Most of the notes I play don't have names". And Son House would throw his b string a good quarter tone flat as it gave him "his sound". So I am a believer in ears first, theory second - but understand that is not always going to work for everything.

I can read sheet music in 4 part harmony and to some extent piano music as well (even though I don't play piano) because that's what I need to do to sing with a Welsh MVC.

I can spot probably 4 modes by ear when listening to fiddle tunes, and I can tune to a mode and set drones against a mode on a dulcimer. And I can read fiddle tune music and transpose on the fly. Because that's what I have needed to do to play mountain dulcimers.

Yet I have absolutely no idea what notes I'm playing on guitar, or what notes make up the chords I'm playing, or what the names are of many of the chords I use when creating an arrangement. And I can't read TAB. Because I don't need to know any of that to play guitar perfectly well enough within the music genera and styles of playing I enjoy.

If I needed to know all the notes on the fretboard, I'd have it nailed down in a week. If I needed to learn scales up and down the fretboard - probably have that nailed in a month. And I expect that if I picked up my guitar now then I could play scales of Mixolydian, Aeolian, Dorian and Ionian by ear - but I wouldn't be able to give you the note names. But I don't actually need to know those things, so have never bothered with them. Learning all the notes on the fretboard will certainly not improve my playing.

What my playing needs right now is more time in front of an audience as a solo act, and more time playing with better musicians. If I was looking to improve my soloing, then my starting point would be listening to good players, stealing riffs and licks, and gradually building up my own improvisation tool box. I wouldn't start with scales and modes.
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Old 05-18-2023, 02:31 PM
mawmow mawmow is offline
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I went through that some years ago.

Mode is just starting a scale on any other note of the scale than the tonal note.

So, if you play the key of C starting on the second note D, the whole scale will appear
to sound differently because the notes appear to be in different intervals than our ear
would expect from a standard C scale, but it is still the same key.

Some musicians are known for their use of different modes since they taste differently.

The key is : If it sounds good, it is good.
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Old 05-18-2023, 04:29 PM
pjbelsch pjbelsch is offline
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Thank you everyone for such amazing and detailed information and advice. One guy I know told me a couple months ago when I asked about soloing better was “if you play the wrong note the right one is the next fret”
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Old 05-18-2023, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mawmow View Post
I went through that some years ago.

Mode is just starting a scale on any other note of the scale than the tonal note.
"Starting on" is not enough. That's often how we are introduced to modes, and how we first practice them. It's not how they work in real music. It's much better to understand modes the parallel way.

E.g., you don't get D dorian by starting C major on D. You get it by starting from D minor and raising the 6th. You have to hear D as keynote, and Dm as home chord, that's the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mawmow View Post
So, if you play the key of C starting on the second note D, the whole scale will appear to sound differently because the notes appear to be in different intervals than our ear would expect from a standard C scale, but it is still the same key.
If it's still the same "key" - i.e., C still sounds like the keynote - then that's not D dorian mode. It's just C major with an emphasis on the 2nd note.
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Originally Posted by mawmow View Post
Some musicians are known for their use of different modes since they taste differently.
Yes, because the music is actually composed differently, not because they play differently.

D dorian mode is not in the key of C major. Its key chord is Dm, and it sounds like the key of D minor, but with B natural instead of Bb.

If a song is in C major, there is no way of playing it so that it sounds like any other mode. Likewise, if it's in D dorian, you can't play it so it sounds like C major, or any other mode.

That obviously doesn't mean you can't change the feel or the mood by how you play! You just can't change the mode. Unless you actually re-write.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mawmow View Post
The key is : If it sounds good, it is good.
Sure! But theory is about defining terms as unambiguously as possible. Theory doesn't make judgments, it just names the sounds and categorizes them. Keys and modes are two different ways of making music, of organizing the notes and the harmonies.
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