German Spruce or Adirondack Spruce: Your preference and why?

[Laurent Brondel]

Builders have their own personal preferences, based on the results they get on the long run. Personally I use almost exclusively European (mostly German and Carpathian) and red spruce, and I do hear a general difference between both in the finished guitars (the ones I build). From my perspective red spruce tends to produce more complex overtones in the upper partials and clearer bass registers. I would not characterise red spruce as being more fundamental or with greater dynamic range than a good Euro top. IME, of course, mileage may vary for other styles of building.
While it is true that the tonal differences between some spruces are not huge, and it is also true that the differences between tonewoods are often greatly exaggerated, it is naïve to bundle everything together and state it all sounds the same.

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by Laurent Brondel

Builders have their own personal preferences, based on the results they get on the long run. Personally I use almost exclusively European (mostly German and Carpathian) and red spruce, and I do hear a general difference between both in the finished guitars (the ones I build). From my perspective red spruce tends to produce more complex overtones in the upper partials and clearer bass registers. I would not characterise red spruce as being more fundamental or with greater dynamic range than a good Euro top. IME, of course, mileage may vary for other styles of building.
While it is true that the tonal differences between some spruces are not huge, and it is also true that the differences between tonewoods are often greatly exaggerated, it is naïve to bundle everything together and state it all sounds the same.

"All sounds the same", no.
"Overlap", yes.

I believe what you are seeing in comments from other builders, and what I am saying, is this tendency amongst some to try to classify each tone wood as having very very specific properties is oversimplifying.
As much as claiming "they all sound the same".

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by Jeff M

Re; the Ford quote....
Frank refers to tone right at the beginning;
"Various species of spruce have been used for steel string guitar tops over the years, and each have their devotees. I'm not going to get into speculating about predicting the sound of individual species, partly because of the extreme difficulty in making a positive identification."...

Bottom line is, there are lots of very very experienced builders out there who are of the opinion that there is a lot of overlap between how spruces sound,

How can one honestly answer the question "which is better?" or "what does xxx sound like?" in the face of that?

So Frank does not say there isn't a difference in tone among the species. He says that because identification is difficult he doesn't want to get into it. But no one, so far as I know, has ever said that in order for the spruce species to have different tonal tendencies, they must be visually distinguishable. If Frank is saying that, he is not offering any evidence.

No one denies the overlap. I'll say it, too. They are all spruce and all sound like spruce. The fallacy is in thinking that overlap means no generalizable difference. Is there no difference in height between men and women because there is a lot of overlap?

I have said which I think is the best all around, in my opinion. That's because it hits the mark for me more often than do some of the others. I buy and use the wood I think is most likely to yield what I am looking for. I notice consistent differences in how they sound, based on species. There are objectively measurable differences (with overlap) in the physical properties of the species. I doubt that Rick or Paul (even) buys generic spruce tops without selecting the species, because they think it makes no difference.

Is the idea that one can generalize accurately among groups that overlap (even that overlap a lot) not making sense?

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

So Frank does not say there isn't a difference in tone among the species. He says that because identification is difficult he doesn't want to get into it. But no one, so far as I know, has ever said that in order for the spruce species to have different tonal tendencies, they must be visually distinguishable. If Frank is saying that, he is not offering any evidence.

No one denies the overlap. I'll say it, too. They are all spruce and all sound like spruce. The fallacy is in thinking that overlap means no generalizable difference. Is there no difference in height between men and women because there is a lot of overlap?

I have said which I think is the best all around, in my opinion. That's because it hits the mark for me more often than do some of the others. I buy and use the wood I think is most likely to yield what I am looking for. I notice consistent differences in how they sound, based on species. There are objectively measurable differences (with overlap) in the physical properties of the species. I doubt that Rick or Paul (even) buys generic spruce tops without selecting the species, because they think it makes no difference.

Is the idea that one can generalize accurately among groups that overlap (even that overlap a lot) not making sense?

No.
And does the concept that there are some that seem to OVER generalize (or better yet, over "pigeon hole") not make any sense?

If I hand a set of topwood to a builder like Tom Humphrey and ask them to tell me if it is Adirondack or not, and they tell me they can't tell..they rely on the supplier, that seems like a pretty unambiguous statement that there is a lot of tonal overlap. At least for that builder.

If I handed you a thousand sets of different top woods, could you with 100% accuracy separate them into their correct species?
70%?
50%?
30%?

Even if you had an overall accuracy of lets say 70%, your answer to somebody asking "what does European Spruce sound like" would have to be given with the caveat of "given my design, how I build guitars, how I select MY European spruce based on my selecting out those sets that have qualities I am looking for..,,,when I build with it it tends to sound......"
Focusing on the (supposed) definitive tonal traits of a species of wood, one ignores what is the MUCH more important question...who built the guitar?

There is more risk of leading somebody (generally people new to guitars) astray with "German Spruce sounds like THIS , while Adirondack sounds like THAT " than saying "well, there is a lot of overlap with tendencies to sound like.......".

[Battleman]

Without Vigorous imperial scientific analysis, we can never be 100% sure of what type of spruce top we have on a particular guitar. Speculative, at most. The bracing and build-up(and methods of fabrication ) will set forth the Tonal properties apart from one another.

[Wade Hampton]

Jeff, I share many of your same attitudes about the various spruce species. But from what I read in Howard and Laurent's posts is that they've gotten repeatable results by using certain woods.

Over the years I've bought and commissioned a number of custom koa instruments, both guitars and mountain dulcimers. I've had great luck with some, less with others. What I gradually came to realize is that the best-sounding koa instruments I own or have played have all had strong color contrast, with dark brown stripes immediately adjacent to light golden browns.

I've had far less consistent luck with koa that's more monochromatic, regardless of how much flame it might have. The stripey koa has worked best for me.

So what am I supposed to do with that knowledge? I can't prove anything even remotely scientific with it, and couldn't talk knowledgeably about wood densities or anything else. All I know is that the koa with high color contrast - the stripey stuff - is more likely to give me the tone I seek than other koa wood sets.

So that's the koa I look for. I don't know why it should be any more likely to produce good-sounding musical instruments, but that's been my repeated experience over the twenty five years or so I was actively buying and commissioning koa instruments.

Howard and I talked about this topwood issue on the phone, and what he said is that it's been his experience that most of the really great guitars he's heard have had tops out of one of these two spruce species he uses.

So that works for him, just like my preference for stripey koa works for me. It's not as though Moses brought this information with him down from Mount Sinai carved on stone tablets, but it's what works for Howard.

Since I just took delivery on an truly outstanding guitar Howard built using his own preferences and guidelines, I can tell you that he makes terrific guitars following those preferences.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton "Satisfied Klepper Guitar Owner" Miller

[Howard Klepper]

' "Is the idea that one can generalize accurately among groups that overlap (even that overlap a lot) not making sense?"
--------------
No.'
----------------

Then I think further conversation on this issue will be fruitless. But I will still like Jeff.

[Michael T]

Originally Posted by wthurman

Depends on the guitar. I've most consistently preferred sitka. Poor me.

I'ver got to say the one's still at home all have "sitka", something about them keep them there. Seems to have my flavor in both 6 or 12 string. Poor me too

[Cesarecivil]

nice music larry!!!!!


Hello!!!!
I entered this forum through google looking info about this difference, adi vs german, cause I build classical guitars and happen to be in upstate NY for a couple weeks. Now that I registered in the forum, I understand that the discussion is inside ACOUSTIC guitars related forums. Anyway... why not make it extensive for classical right? I mean, it is obvious the difference between nylon and metal strings!!!!!! Europeand brands will hardly use adirondack. I live in south america and if I could find a replacement for german spruce, the supposed GOD of guitarmaking for what I have been taught, I wouldnt blink an eye. Hence here I am looking for different alternatives. I deffinetely need to try working with adi so I can have better conclusions. I am looking for air dried adirondack spruce and since this is a local wood here I believe it shouldnt be hard to find... but I see its commonly merchandized as more expensive than german spruce!!! Anyone knows where I can find something for around 50 usd for a top? Or maybe an old plank or beam.
Sincerely, Cesar

[PTL]

Agree with all the 'wishy washy' answers. While there may be general directions of each species of wood (i.e. cedar vs red spruce), the variation can be great. For example, two of the most sensitive instruments I've played are adi topped. And there's a phenomenal cedar topped guitar that has the most beautiful trebles and dense tone I've ever encountered without being tubby in the least, and it was actually more middle of the range in terms of responsiveness and can be flatpicked all day long. So I think it is the specific tree, the builder, and the way it is built.

At the end of the day, I would trust the builder to pick the wood to achieve a tone that one describes.

By the way, I love Koa and I read Wade's observations. Worth mulling over but I've not found that correlation myself. For me, I think it is the tap tone and how resonant the tap tones go. I have some Koa where luthiers said they rang like very good stiff cedar, for example.

[jaymarsch]

While I do not have a lot of experience with classical guitars, the one crossover I owned was Engelmann and East Indian and was lovely and responsive. Of my steel stringed guitars, 2 have German tops and 1 has an Adi top. They are each great guitars and have their own tone. The Adi took a while to break in but it is responsive to both a light touch and a heavy strum. I think that it comes down to the builder, the bracing, and how each top is voiced. Lots of variables. I would imagine that the way a plucked nylon string moves a top is different than how a plucked steel string accomplishes the same thing. Less tension and weight. Sounds like a worthy experiment. Good luck in finding the Adi that you are looking for.
Best,
Jayne

[jmagill]

Originally Posted by dberkowitz

I like my friend Gus Wanner's (former manager of The Guitar Shop, here in DC) description for German spruce: white cedar. Adirondack is great but generally requires a stronger right hand and is weighted sonically toward the fundamentals. German spruce has a darker, richer harmonic quality and an immediacy in its response that does remind one of cedar.

This is a pretty good summary of my own experience, although I have never specified a particular species of spruce in my custom builds. I describe the tone I want and leave it to my builder to choose the woods to achieve it.

I get the difficulty in accurately sourcing species of wood, and I have to trust my builder, just as they have to trust their wood supplier, that the species is as claimed. However, I've noticed that when I'm going for a more traditional, 'vintage Martin' tonal character (dry, more fundamental with less overtones) in a particular build, more often than not the luthier will choose red spruce (picea rubens), or occasionally Sitka (picea stichensis). If I'm going for a more 'contemporary' tone (more complexity in overtones and longer sustain) my builders generally select some variety of European spruce (German, Italian, Swiss, Carpathian, etc. are all picea abies), or occasionally Engelmann (picea engelmannii).

I tend to favor the 'contemporary' tone, and the guitar with my all-time favorite tone has a Swiss 'moon spruce' top that I saw during the build process had the supplier's mark (including a crescent moon), stamped into the wood.

Every good luthier can build a fine guitar using any topwood, as long as its physical qualities suit the tonal goal, but it's interesting that most builders I know (including David Berkowitz here) tend to share the general wisdom about the tonal properties of red spruce vs Euro spruce...

.

[Andyrondack]

'German' spruce is just a marketing tool of the German forestry industry , in reality there is no such biological classification.

[massimo]

I am partial to Italian spruce from Val di Fiemme. Luthiers here call it red spruce here due to the color of the bark. You may want to investigate sourcing it.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Andyrondack

'German' spruce is just a marketing tool of the German forestry industry , in reality there is no such biological classification.

"German Spruce" is a catch all term for all European native spruce which is Picea Abies and grows from Scandinavia all the way down to the Balkans and Italy.

It is also called "Norway Spruce!"

The name/term German was, I'm told, because much of it sold out of Europe was shipped out of German ports.

It is used in boat building, most structural purposes, fencing and toilet paper!

"moon spruce" is a theory from the central European Violin builders who thought the at full moon the sap was at a minimum. thi may or may not be true.


Adirondack "red spruce" is an eastern North American type which grows from Canada down to the adirondacks and further. It was seriously over harvested on the 1900s for ship and aeroplane purposes and "wasted" by surface coal mining in the Appalachians, so most "Adi" now is new growth.

Sitka (Sitka Stichensis) ais a larger fast growing (but long lived) tree growing naturally from Alaska through Canada and down into, I think, California.

You can get a good cut and a poor cut from all.

When Martin changed from Adi to Sitka they told no-one, just like when they changed from BRW to EIR. Nobody worried much about it back then.

For a high volume product sitka is probable safest.

For a richer sound used by a skilled luthier, European could well be the better choice.

New growth Adi is now relatively common and used a lot by brands like Eastman.

Somewhere there is a video or Richard Hoover saying that he searches for good logs but "some companies" buy whole forests".

That's all I know. If a guitar sounds and feels good - it's probably good.

Any brand that describes their tops as "Select spruce" means "the easiest piece to grab taken from the top of the pile in the corner".