Bridge won’t allow for required saddle adjustment?

[Farlsborough]

Hi folks,
As per my NGD thread, I have acquired an Atkin LG47. Very pleased so far, although I’ve got the above niggle. I’d bought this guitar predominantly for fingerpicking, and so am hoping to have a fairly low action on it. Using the capo at 1st fret, fretted at 12th method, the neck seems pretty straight, just a tiny bit of relief. Action at 12th fret is 3.5mm on low e, so want to take off a good 1.25mm.

So this means taking off 2.5mm at the saddle, right? But unfortunately, that will take the top of the saddle below the edge of the saddle recess in the bridge.

I’m hoping I’ve missed something here and that it isn’t going to need some dramatic neck reset. Or, do you ever end up needing to thin down the bridge (I.e. take 1mm or so off the raised portion of the bridge to allow for saddle lowering? If so I’ll take it to a professional…

[phavriluk]

First, pictures would help with remote responses.

I think the jury would like to know how thick the bridge is and how far the strings are above the soundboard (top of the saddle to soundboard distance). Idea being is to try to see if there's enough meat on the bridge to allow thinning it and how much room is available to lower the strings/saddle.

2.5mm string height at the 12th fret in English units is 9/64"/.137". Right up there.

Have you spoken with the dealer and/or the manufacturer?

[Farlsborough]

Originally Posted by phavriluk

First, pictures would help with remote responses.

I think the jury would like to know how thick the bridge is and how far the strings are above the soundboard (top of the saddle to soundboard distance). Idea being is to try to see if there's enough meat on the bridge to allow thinning it and how much room is available to lower the strings/saddle.

2.5mm string height at the 12th fret in English units is 9/64"/.137". Right up there.

Have you spoken with the dealer and/or the manufacturer?

Not yet…
Strings are 13mm above soundboard (measured on low e, to best of my ability). Bridge is 9mm.

What sort of string heights are normal lower down the fretboard? It’s about 2mm at 5th fret, 1mm at 1st.

[phavriluk]

String height measurement is a 'normal' value, a bit over a half-inch (33/64" and .51"). Experts' opinions/observations would help and I have no experience in a discussion like this one.

[thefsb]

Did you check nut height? Put capo between 2nd and 3rd frets and check action at 1st fret. It should be invisibly tiny but not nothing.

When you said action at 12th is 3.5 mm, is that with or without the capo at the 1t?

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by Farlsborough

Action at 12th fret is 3.5mm on low e, so want to take off a good 1.25mm.

Maybe a silly question, but is that measured from the top of the 12th fret, or from the fingerboard, to the underside of the string?

[Fathand]

Originally Posted by phavriluk

First, pictures would help with remote responses.


2.5mm string height at the 12th fret in English units is 9/64"/.137". Right up there.

I think you've miscalculated somewhere?

2.5 millimetres = 0.0984 inch, a bit less than 7/64"

[Farlsborough]

[QUOTE=JayBee1404;7263235]

Originally Posted by Farlsborough

Action at 12th fret is 3.5mm on low e, so want to take off a good 1.25mm.
/QUOTE]

Maybe a silly question, but is that measured from the top of the 12th fret, or from the fingerboard, to the underside of the string?

Not a silly question, I’m a complete amateur! From top of the 12th fret - I don’t know how I’d measure to fingerboard. And this is without capo.

I may get away with it; I’ve tweaked the truss rod by a 1/4 turn and that’s brought it down to 2.75 at low E, 2mm at high E. The relief is now microscopic, just the tiniest bit of discernible movement when push-testing at 7th Fret with capo at 1st and 12th. But now I don’t think I’ll need so much off the saddle, phew…

[phavriluk]

Originally Posted by phavriluk

First, pictures would help with remote responses.

I think the jury would like to know how thick the bridge is and how far the strings are above the soundboard (top of the saddle to soundboard distance). Idea being is to try to see if there's enough meat on the bridge to allow thinning it and how much room is available to lower the strings/saddle.

2.5mm string height at the 12th fret in English units is 9/64"/.137". Right up there.

Have you spoken with the dealer and/or the manufacturer?

Typo time - - - should have typed '3.5mm', which is what OP mentioned.

[rick-slo]

I would shoot for 2.5mm at the low E twelfth fret. So 2mm off the saddle. However first check the neck relief. As far as sanding the bridge a little lower you can do that a little probably without a problem and simply if the bridge saddle slot is left with enough depth.

[warfrat73]

This probably won't make much difference, but relief is typically measured with the string held down at the 1st fret and at the fret where the neck meets the body. You've mentioned a couple times that you measured it with it held down at the 12th fret, rather than the 14th (and I'm pretty sure this is a 14 fret to body guitar).

It might give you a slightly higher reading.

[nikpearson]

A very small of neck relief is desirable. On my own instruments I aim for between 0.10 and 0.15 mm usually. If tightening the truss rod has left less relief than this that is fine providing there is no fret buzz at your desired action height.

On my steel-string instruments I usually aim for an action at the 12th fret of 2.5 mm on the 6th string, 2.0 mm on the 1st string. This allows all styles of playing including heavy strumming and digging in on single notes while remaining easy to play. There’s also scope for dropped tunings without too much issue. For a guitar that’s staying in one tuning I’ll bring these figures down to 2.3 mm and 1.8 mm respectively. You can certainly go lower but there’s a trade off in fret buzz.

Nut string slots make a big difference to playability (action at first few frets) but only impact very marginally on 12th fret action.

String height above the soundboard is quite important. Typically steel string guitars aim for between 12 and 13 mm. Lowering the bridge (or saddle) significantly can have a significant impact on the instruments sound.

You can check the neck/body geometry by laying a straightedge along the top of the frets. Ideally the straightedge should just clear the top of the bridge (not the saddle). If it contacts well below the top surface of the bridge then a neck reset is the best way to go. I seem to remember Atkin guitars use a neck joint similar to Collings: a bolt on wedge-shaped tenon with the fingerboard glued to the soundboard. A neck reset is easy to accomplish with this type of design when compared with a traditional dovetail. If only a small adjustment is needed then this can be done without ungluing the fingerboard; it just leaves a small amount of fall away on the fingerboard where it sits on the top - actually quite desirable. A full neck reset, if needed, shouldn’t be too expensive. Contact Atkin Guitars directly for advice.

Best of luck with resolving this.

[Farlsborough]

Originally Posted by nikpearson

A very small of neck relief is desirable. On my own instruments I aim for between 0.10 and 0.15 mm usually. If tightening the truss rod has left less relief than this that is fine providing there is no fret buzz at your desired action height.

On my steel-string instruments I usually aim for an action at the 12th fret of 2.5 mm on the 6th string, 2.0 mm on the 1st string. This allows all styles of playing including heavy strumming and digging in on single notes while remaining easy to play. There’s also scope for dropped tunings without too much issue. For a guitar that’s staying in one tuning I’ll bring these figures down to 2.3 mm and 1.8 mm respectively. You can certainly go lower but there’s a trade off in fret buzz.

Nut string slots make a big difference to playability (action at first few frets) but only impact very marginally on 12th fret action.

String height above the soundboard is quite important. Typically steel string guitars aim for between 12 and 13 mm. Lowering the bridge (or saddle) significantly can have a significant impact on the instruments sound.

You can check the neck/body geometry by laying a straightedge along the top of the frets. Ideally the straightedge should just clear the top of the bridge (not the saddle). If it contacts well below the top surface of the bridge then a neck reset is the best way to go. I seem to remember Atkin guitars use a neck joint similar to Collings: a bolt on wedge-shaped tenon with the fingerboard glued to the soundboard. A neck reset is easy to accomplish with this type of design when compared with a traditional dovetail. If only a small adjustment is needed then this can be done without ungluing the fingerboard; it just leaves a small amount of fall away on the fingerboard where it sits on the top - actually quite desirable. A full neck reset, if needed, shouldn’t be too expensive. Contact Atkin Guitars directly for advice.

Best of luck with resolving this.

Thanks. I have a very good local luthier (rather than a “tech”!) who I’ll ask to have a look at this; spent too much on this guitar to risk monkeying myself. It’s *very close* to what I want now, but I think neck is really as straight as it can possibly be. He might be able to shave a tiny bit off saddle to get that last few fractions of a mm but frustrating that this isn’t within the gift of the truss rod. Tempting to bite the bullet, get the neck reset and then presumably be able to dial it in exactly with the truss Rod later down the line. But it’s not that old, so a bit annoying if it does need a reset. I’m not the original owner so I think Atkin will just say “sure - that’ll be £££ please” [emoji19]

[phavriluk]

Horses for courses: Truss rod adjustments host neck relief. Action height is the saddle's department. Two independent adjustments.