Build Thread: Kraut Modified Dreadnought

[walrus]

If I was as disappointed and unhappy with a guitar's tone as it appears in Juston's case I would not be motivated to give that guitar regular play.

My opinion is that this thread has been enlightening and informative about a build experience that didn't live up to expectations. We'll have our own individual takeaways from this. The vast, vast majority of build threads ends up a positive experience, and I'm fortunate to be in that group. I feel Juston has been fair and even-handed in this thread, both in the beginning when it was overwhelmingly positive, and in this endgame.

[justonwo]

Just to clarify, I haven't made any decisions about what to do with the guitar, selling or otherwise.

[Tony_in_NYC]

Originally Posted by steveh

I'm with those who argue that the guitar is almost certain to improve with more playing but is it going to turn from Justin's ugly sister into his Cinderella? I doubt it.

Why do you have to bring Justin's sister into this? I'm sure Justin's sister has a wonderful personality! And why would Justin date his sister if she did turn into Cinderella? This simply a ridiculous notion. Now, if Justin's sister turned into the guitar of his dreams, I am sure he would play her. He might feel dirty when he did it though.


On a serious note, more people than Justin have ordered custom guitars and are not happy with them. However, we don't normally hear about them. Recently, one of Bruce Sexauer's customers was unhappy with the sound of one of Bruce's guitars. The difference there is that Bruce tried to make the customer happy and built a new guitar. It seems that Justin is having a hard time dealing with Mr. Kraut. He does not like the sound of the guitar, and he is not pleased with how that is being handled. Added together, for Justin, the guitar is a bunch of bad memories and he has only had it for a short time.
The guitar has bad juju in his eyes and he simply wont play it. We can all speculate about how wonderful the guitar might sound in a few days, weeks, months, years, but in the end, the guitar is a sore spot for Justin and he wants to rid himself of it and move on. End of story.

For the record Justin, I can build you a guitar that may or may not sound how you want it to for MUCH less than that Kraut! Give me a call!

[stringjunky]

Unless it's going to hurt the sale price not doing it now I think you could put the guitar away in its case for three months Juston to completely forget about it. Go back to it and see how you feel with a fresher mind and the guitar will have settled and cured a bit more. I think you're too cheesed off at the moment to make a balanced decision and also to execute the process of selling it in the right frame of mind that will be right for you in the long run.

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by Tony_in_NYC

<<snip>>

On a serious note, more people than Justin have ordered custom guitars and are not happy with them. However, we don't normally hear about them. Recently, one of Bruce Sexauer's customers was unhappy with the sound of one of Bruce's guitars. The difference there is that Bruce tried to make the customer happy and built a new guitar. It seems that Justin is having a hard time dealing with Mr. Kraut. He does not like the sound of the guitar, and he is not pleased with how that is being handled. Added together, for Justin, the guitar is a bunch of bad memories and he has only had it for a short time.
The guitar has bad juju in his eyes and he simply wont play it. We can all speculate about how wonderful the guitar might sound in a few days, weeks, months, years, but in the end, the guitar is a sore spot for Justin and he wants to rid himself of it and move on. End of story.

For the record Justin, I can build you a guitar that may or may not sound how you want it to for MUCH less than that Kraut! Give me a call!

I don't disagree with any of this.

Juston will do what he needs to do, for himself...that's his right, of course...and we each deal with these things in our regular lives, I'm sure!

Sore spots, personality issues, difficult and/or unfulfilled (or improperly handled) business relationships...all relevant.

I've tried to stay away from all of that, and simply consider what a 3-week old guitar might sound like...and whether or not I would judge a guitar solely on it's sound at this point in it's life.

I would not.

Others would.

[Sage97]

Originally Posted by Tony_in_NYC

Why do you have to bring Justin's sister into this? I'm sure Justin's sister has a wonderful personality! And why would Justin date his sister if she did turn into Cinderella? This simply a ridiculous notion. Now, if Justin's sister turned into the guitar of his dreams, I am sure he would play her. He might feel dirty when he did it though.

The water that I was sipping when I read this didn't go in like it was supposed to.

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by Tony_in_NYC

Why do you have to bring Justin's sister into this? I'm sure Justin's sister has a wonderful personality! And why would Justin date his sister if she did turn into Cinderella? This simply a ridiculous notion. Now, if Justin's sister turned into the guitar of his dreams, I am sure he would play her. He might feel dirty when he did it though. ...

Originally Posted by Sage97

The water that I was sipping when I read this didn't go in like it was supposed to.

This thread has been rather sobering, but this comment really made me laugh! I gotta say, I'm glad!

- Glenn

[justonwo]

The use of humor or other similar instruments to evoke laughter or laughter by-products is strictly forbidden in this thread.

[jperryrocks]

After reading all the thoughts and comments, and adding a few of my own, I'm finding myself siding more with the buyer.

As a buyer, there are levels of culpability. But it seems like total faith was placed in the builders hands, and all the wood choices were his to accomplish what the client wanted.

The final product wasn't even close to what he wanted sound wise. It's probably very difficult to swallow a build when you probably have a months work into 1 guitar and only make 10-12 guitars a year.

Ray seems to be a stand up guy who just did his best, and there could have been a mis communication in his eyes.

But if you order an apple pie and get banana instead, I can understand how the client would not be happy and want some recourse.

[bdm0509]

I step carefully into these waters... but...

...as it currently stands, Ray has asked that the guitar be sent back for his evaluation, on his dime. (This is mentioned by Juston earlier on; he's been very upfront about it.) To presuppose what will happen once Ray has the guitar back in his hands is complete conjecture, no doubt.

I also am fully in support of Juston having the choice not pursue recourse with Ray. But in the interest of actual profitable discussion going on in this thread again--and these last few posts suggest that it is--it's worth saying that as of right now, the ball is not in Ray's court; it's in Juston's.

Certainly, it's Juston's prerogative to want a refund, or partial refund, or whatnot. But I think it's equally Ray's prerogative to want to examine the guitar again himself, especially considering that Juston has said repeatedly that it changed fairly significantly over the first few days.

In this case, outside of being Juston himself, I'd suggest that I'm very much one to talk. I went through a similar process with Ray, and it was painful, and Juston was very supportive of me, and I don't want this response to be perceived as shifting blame. I've personally (most recently) encouraged him to send the guitar back, if only because it has at least -the potential- to open up other options.

As Steve said, and said well, what does Ray "standing behind his guitar" mean? I think to find out that answer, Ray has to be given a chance to examine the guitar and then respond.

Now, none of this means this is the only solution. Juston may want to simply wash his hands of the matter and move on. Certainly fair, as (again, having gone through something similar) these are emotionally exhausting situations.

I simply want to point out that to suggest that Ray has given Juston the proverbial "Too bad, live with it" doesn't match the most recent facts as they've been presented in this thread. I think both Juston and Ray want resolution; I simply suspect that they want potentially different means of getting to that resolution (and possible altogether different resolutions!).

-B

[justonwo]

Brett, I don't really have anything new to add to the conversation so I will just quote myself from earlier. Although, as I have said before, Ray has requested the opportunity to examine the guitar in person - which would be the one rational step toward a resolution under normal circumstances - I decided when I made my first post to forego continuing my relationship with Ray. Perhaps some of these quotes will help shed light on my reasoning.

Originally Posted by justonwo

. . . So in the context of this history, and my personal involvement in conflict resolution on Ray's behalf, when my own story started down a very negative road, I decided that I simply wasn't prepared to endure the same drawn-out battles that it appeared to me others had endured. In the final cost-benefit, I did not have the confidence that my guitar could be altered to achieve the sound goals I had laid out. And I did not see the point of pursuing a new build (if that was ever going to be offered) if the first build had gone so awry. Most importantly, however, I wasn't willing to suffer through a bunch of emotional turmoil in the name of improving the sound of a guitar . . .

. . .But the big "miss" on the tone of the guitar was only half the equation. The other half was 1) the historical context of previous customers' interactions with Ray (from my perspective, anyway) and 2) the rapid devolution (my opinion, of course) of my interactions with Ray after I expressed some concerns about the tone of the guitar. To be sure, as detailed over the many, many posts in this thread, Ray went above and beyond to make sure the experience was a positive one during the build process. I enjoyed working with him very much. In my opinion, things took a dramatic turn in the opposite direction after receipt of the guitar . . .

. . . But, ultimately and most importantly, it's the stress and emotion that I believe would be required to reach the stated endpoint that caused me to decide to move on. So I did.

[justonwo]

I should mention that, in response to this thread, I have been contacted by two very well-known and highly respected luthiers, both of whom were concerned that my situation and experience would reflect poorly on the luthier community at large. They were concerned that other guitar buyers might be less inclined to put their faith in the commissioning of a luthier-built guitar if those buyers felt there was the risk of an outcome similar to mine.

As a gesture of goodwill on behalf of the luthier community and as a demonstration of what THEY believe should be meant when a luthier makes the assertion that they "stand behind their guitars," these two luthiers individually offered me overwhelmingly generous alternatives to the options I now face with my Kraut.

1) One of these luthiers has offered to take my guitar on credit at full new purchase value toward the purchase of one of their guitars. Essentially, they have offered to take on the burden of holding onto and ultimately selling this guitar (potentially at a loss) so that I don't have to. I will get full and immediate credit for my guitar should I pursue this option.

2) Because I am not allowed to sell the deposit on my OM and because I cannot get even a partial refund on my $1500, another luthier has offered to give me a $1500 credit toward the purchase of one of their guitars.

Again, the primary purpose of both offers was to demonstrate to the wider guitar buying public that some luthiers are willing to go to extraordinary lengths to make sure their customers walk away with a positive experience.

[muzz76]

Both of those options seem like an excellent resolution...not to mention very generous in the case of the luthiers who have stepped up and made these offers.

[cokezero]

Originally Posted by justonwo

1) One of these luthiers has offered to take my guitar on credit at full new purchase value toward the purchase of one of their guitars. Essentially, they have offered to take on the burden of holding onto and ultimately selling this guitar (potentially at a loss) so that I don't have to. I will get full and immediate credit for my guitar should I pursue this option.

2) Because I am not allowed to sell the deposit on my OM and because I cannot get even a partial refund on my $1500, another luthier has offered to give me a $1500 credit toward the purchase of one of their guitars.

Absolutely AMAZING

[ericcsong]

Originally Posted by justonwo

2) Because I am not allowed to sell the deposit on my OM and because I cannot get even a partial refund on my $1500, another luthier has offered to give me a $1500 credit toward the purchase of one of their guitars.

I don't understand why Ray wouldn't let you sell your deposit, yet he allowed someone else to. But really none of my business

Glad you have some other options and thumbs up to those who step in to help. Best of luck!