Does Neck Length Affect Tendinitis ?

[BradleyS]

So in March I started a thread concerning a Taylor 322 or a Martin 000-18.
To bring that thread to a conclusion, I ended up with a 2018 Martin 000-18.
The 000 is a wonderful guitar in all respects...but. I have developed chronic tendinitis in the forearm of my fretting arm. I have one other guitar that is a 12 fret.
It seems that playing the 14 fret Martin causes the tendinitis to flair up much quicker than when playing the 12 fret.
I know some members have moved to smaller bodied guitars due to shoulder pain. Has anyone moved from a 14 fret guitar to a 12 fret due to pain in their fretting forearm ?

[SprintBob]

Consider if you are playing with the neck more horizontal and if so, consider something like the NeckUp (www.neckup.com). The higher neck angle will allow you to play with a straighter and more relaxed wrist.

[Steve DeRosa]

IME it's more a function of neck width/contour rather than length - I have no problem playing a 34" scale Jazz Bass, but hand me an old P-Bass with the thick 1-3/4" neck and I'll be reaching for the Tylenol in 15 minutes...

[Mandobart]

The longer the scale the greater the string tension if tuned to the same pitch. Same thing when using heavier gage strings. I find higher tension strings require more force by my fretting hand. If I had this problem I would first make sure the action is where you want it (higher action also requires more force). If that didn't help I would switch to lighter strings.

[mawmow]

Is the action correct ?
Higher action needs more strenght...

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by BradleyS

So in March I started a thread concerning a Taylor 322 or a Martin 000-18.
To bring that thread to a conclusion, I ended up with a 2018 Martin 000-18.
The 000 is a wonderful guitar in all respects...but. I have developed chronic tendinitis in the forearm of my fretting arm. I have one other guitar that is a 12 fret.
It seems that playing the 14 fret Martin causes the tendinitis to flair up much quicker than when playing the 12 fret.
I know some members have moved to smaller bodied guitars due to shoulder pain. Has anyone moved from a 14 fret guitar to a 12 fret due to pain in their fretting forearm ?

I have a 14 fret 322, bought to help out with shoulder problems. No hint of tendinitis when playing it.

I'd suggest you capo at the first fret, tuning down a half step to give you standard tuning. Play for a few weeks like that to see if that helps and then you'll know for sure if that's the direction you need to go.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by BradleyS

So in March I started a thread concerning a Taylor 322 or a Martin 000-18.
To bring that thread to a conclusion, I ended up with a 2018 Martin 000-18.
The 000 is a wonderful guitar in all respects...but. I have developed chronic tendinitis in the forearm of my fretting arm. I have one other guitar that is a 12 fret.
It seems that playing the 14 fret Martin causes the tendinitis to flair up much quicker than when playing the 12 fret.
I know some members have moved to smaller bodied guitars due to shoulder pain. Has anyone moved from a 14 fret guitar to a 12 fret due to pain in their fretting forearm ?

Hi, you may know that I changed from 14 to 12 fretters from about 1998, but for me it was more about fretboard width.

However, I have perceived that the geometry of the 12 fretter guitars over all demand a little less left arm extension.

When I was ill, and lost a lot of weight very quickly I too felt the shoulder pain that many have spoken of here and elsewhere.

This was, indeed worse on my dreads, and seated, which was very worrying. Whilst I do believe that Dreads, jumbos etc/. were not designed being played seated , we often do.

My discomfort disappeared after I started a fitness programme at the local gym, and regained my shoulder and arm flexibility.

There are guitars designed for playing seated, O,OO etc., and perhaps even OOO but there is no guitar designed for playing while lounging on a couch. Posture is not for the guitar but for the human body.

My picking partner Mando Bob often complains of lower arm pain, which I put down to his poor posture when we rehearse.

A young man who I've known for most of his life, and is now the British Chris Thile, and plays, a lot, professionally and practises for hours said to me a while ago, "when you play/practice for a long time, you discover things that cause you discomfort ... stop and explore what is causing the pain. Don't put up with it, identify it and change it".

Wisdom from a young man!

[Shuksan]

It seems there is some confusion here between neck length and scale length. Scale length is independent of whether a guitar is a 12 fretter or a 14 fretter.

If the switch to your new guitar has anything to do with it being a 14 fretter vs. a 12 fretter, it may be due to a difference in the overall geometry of the guitar as Silly Moustache mentioned above, assuming the two guitars have the same scale length. You might have to reach further to play in first position on the 14 fretter.

If your 14 fretter has a longer scale length than your 12 fretter, that could be a source of trouble, or if it has a wider neck width, or a combination of both. I used to have an archtop built in the 40s that had a long 25.8" scale with a 1 7/8" nut width. It caused all sorts of havoc with my left hand so I had to sell it.

[vintage40s]

Originally Posted by BradleyS

... ended up with a 2018 Martin 000-18... I have one other guitar that is a 12 fret. It seems that playing the 14 fret Martin causes the tendinitis to flair up much quicker than when playing the 12 fret... Has anyone moved from a 14 fret guitar to a 12 fret due to pain in their fretting forearm ?

Recently I got a 12-fret parlor guitar. My left arm now seems reached to outer space when I play the dreadnought. I can hardly control the left hand out there. I am preferring the parlor guitar for everything, whether standing or sitting on a couch. I even think about selling the dreadnought for a high-end parlor.
For the time being, capo up your 000-18, and try a parlor to see how good the ergonometrics might feel.

[vindibona1]

I truly feel for you. As a former professional photographer I had tendonitis in my forearm caused by a camera bracket that had me carrying the camera the wrong way. A couple steroid shots, a new bracket and learning to carry the camera differently allowed the problem to go away.

There are many possibilities within your question and your bout with tendonitis. But first, having dealt with tendonitis in other areas of life, I can tell you that you not only have to determine what caused the issue, but have to let it calm down- completely, lest you make it worse. Perhaps a visit to the ortho is in order?

A longer scale length guitar will naturally require a bit more work because the strings will feel stiffer naturally due to the tension. This can be alleviated by going to strings that require less work (don't necessarily go by tension specs as feel and numbers aren't necessarily in true correlation. The setup is also a key ingredient to how hard the left hand needs to work. While I don't have tendonitis, I have arthritis in my hands and am very sensitive to the slightest change in workload. Obviously tendonitis is a different issue, but how hard your left hand works will most likely contribute to the inflammation in your arm. So I suggest you examine the string height of your guitars, the neck relief (I can feel a change of .002") and then look for softer feeling strings.

Others have mentioned neck/guitar position. I would be willing to bet that this is a major contributing factor. And combined with that might also be the neck profile and neck width, causing strain on your forearm. And let's not forget that not only the neck angle and left-right position of the guitar comes into play, but the *rotational axis* of the guitar's "face angle" as well as guitar playing height. As a very recent personal example, I lost a significant amount of weight in the past few months. As a result my stomach went away and instead of the guitar's bottom rotating out a few degrees (neck counter-clockwise in my hand) as my stomach pushed it that way, the guitar face is now more vertical, changing the way the neck sits in my hand and required a strap adjustment to find a comfortable playing position once again. For those of us who aren't flexible and may have some joint or tendon inflammation, these small things are important.

Also examine the strings you're playing. If you're working too hard, drop down a gauge or look for a low tension set, or see if going from hex core strings to round core strings (as I have) makes a difference.

[ManyMartinMan]

Originally Posted by Shuksan

It seems there is some confusion here between neck length and scale length. Scale length is independent of whether a guitar is a 12 fretter or a 14 fretter. ...

Yes, and if the neck seems longer (which I don't believe is the issue) just move to the left (if you're right-handed) relative to how you hold the guitar. This will put your fretting hand/arm in the same position as with your other guitar - if the playing position is bothering you.

[BradleyS]

Lots of great information and things to consider.
I am grateful to everyone for taking time to respond

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by BradleyS

Lots of great information and things to consider.
I am grateful to everyone for taking time to respond

Hi BradleyS

Sorry I'm late to the party!

I did a photoshoot using a heavy DSLR and a 400mm lens where I shot several thousand shots over a two day period. It was a total of about 6 hours of shooting.

The upshot was I ended up with tennis-elbow in both elbows.

The next year I met the inventor of the NeckUP at a guitar show, and bought two on the spot after trying them. They allowed me to elevate the headstock to above chin level, and rotate the lower bout to relax my picking arm.

This moved shoulders and elbows in and relaxed them. I was free of the elbow issues in a few months, but use the NeckUP straps to this day anytime I'm playing an acoustic sitting.

[jazzguy]

Originally Posted by BradleyS

Lots of great information and things to consider.
I am grateful to everyone for taking time to respond

Both guitars are short-scale guitars - which means the tension is lower than a standard scale guitar.

In regards to the 12 fret guitar (which guitar??) - that guitar has a "shorter" neck relative to where it hits the body. So the reach for the frets is shorter - therefore your arm is not reaching out so far to get to frets.

Here are some suggestions. Sometimes it's not one thing but the sum of the parts:

- stretch your forearm - google forearm stretches for guitarists. this can make a big difference.
- posture. sit straight and not twisted.
- have your guitar setup properly. Like many, I can do a number of minor adjustments but a qualified Luthier sees things I do not and most importantly has the tools and experience to make the right adjustments. Sometimes when it comes to setting your action (overall playability), it is counter-intuitive. Neck angle, nut slots, truss rod, fret height, and saddle make up your action. One impacts the other. So again, take it to a trusted Luthier and tell them and show them your playing style. Tell them to set the action as low as possible for your particular playing style without string buzzing.
- strings: if you are using mediums, you should strongly consider moving to lights.
- take care to adjust your fretting hand to where you are putting the minimum amount of pressure to fret the note. It's subtle but I find that it is easy to press harder than necessary.

Good luck.