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  #16  
Old 01-16-2019, 02:35 AM
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kramster kramster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Jim View Post
Alas, no X30 for my comparison.
And whose fault is that?
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  #17  
Old 01-16-2019, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by kramster View Post
And whose fault is that?
Apparently, mine. I am a responsible person... whenever something goes wrong around here, I am responsible.
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  #18  
Old 01-16-2019, 10:20 AM
EvanB EvanB is offline
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Captain;

You don't have a 30? I thought everyone had one by now. If you ask, I'll bet Kramster would at least show you his, might even play it for you.
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  #19  
Old 01-16-2019, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by byudzai View Post
Is it wrong that I want another X30?
I think it depends on whether itís a choice or if you were born that way...

I personally canít imagine having more than one of the same guitar but I donít own many to begin with. But since you already have two, whatís one more?
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  #20  
Old 01-16-2019, 10:29 AM
Captain Jim Captain Jim is offline
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Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
Captain;

You don't have a 30? I thought everyone had one by now. If you ask, I'll bet Kramster would at least show you his, might even play it for you.
Everyone? I think I have as many X30s as you. I'm hoping there will be another CF gathering in Phoenix this winter - Kramster and Earl both have X30s... I could probably make the argument to my wife: "But everyone has X30s!" Generally made better by tossing in: "I'll never ask for anything ever again!"

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  #21  
Old 01-16-2019, 11:08 AM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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I cannot promise another Carbon Fiber Gathering, or at least one within your time frame in Arizona. Alice just flew down there to visit mom at the New Year, and it is not clear when we will drive south again. I would expect the fourth week of March or maybe the first week of April. As time gets closer I will start a new thread to coordinate things. Hope it all works out with your schedule.

The easiest option is meeting at Kramster's house if he is willing, so he doesn't have to rent a semi-truck and move the entire warehouse of Emeralds and other brands. Last year I tried to arrange a venue from afar but that didn't work out too well. We will most likely bring along my X20, X20-12, and X30 and the Blackbird Lucky 13 assuming I still have it by then. It would also be nice to compare the classic X7 and new X7 if that works out.

I could bring a pro grade sound meter and we could make our own loudness measurements. But that would be like homework for me (that is what I do for a living).
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  #22  
Old 01-16-2019, 01:35 PM
Captain Jim Captain Jim is offline
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Hi Earl. We will be there through March. I understand your timing, as well. If it works, that would be a bonus. Maybe if I buy Kramster lunch he would let me look at his X30... through the window.
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  #23  
Old 01-16-2019, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Jim View Post
Hi Earl. We will be there through March. I understand your timing, as well. If it works, that would be a bonus. Maybe if I buy Kramster lunch he would let me look at his X30... through the window.
Did someone say lunch?? I'm in!
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YUP....
Emerald: X-20, Center hole X-10 (Maple) and X-7 (redwood), Amicus, Paduak X7,X10, & X30, Spalted Chen Chen X 10
CA: Early OX and Cargo
Blackbird: Savoy
RainSong: CH-OM, CH-WS
Journey: OF660
McPherson: Touring(Honeycomb and gold), Sable
Some wood things by Epi, Harmony, Takamine, Good Time, PRS, Gypsy Music, keyboards, wind controllers.. etc
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  #24  
Old 01-16-2019, 05:05 PM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
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Interesting quick and dirty test, and not something that I've heard done a lot, so I appreciated getting to see it.

Obviously, a db reading on a meter isn't the whole story of loudness, but there's essentially no difference on the meter save for the X30. If I was to have guessed ahead of the test, having no Emerald experience whatsoever, I'd have guessed the X20 would have been louder than the X7 on the meter.
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  #25  
Old 01-16-2019, 07:15 PM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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Loudness is a complex issue. Most meters can read dBA or A-weighted decibels. The A-weighting noticeably rolls off the lows and some mids to make the reading better correspond with subjective loudness. I often use the example of a railroad locomotive at 80 dBA (50 feet) and a high-hat cymbal at 80 dBA (measured at 2 feet). One has a huge amount of low end and WAY more acoustic power, the other only high frequencies and less power. But two juries of listeners would describe each having similar overall loudness. It's not perfect, but is the best that the industry can do.

A sound meter set to read dBA will give similar readings for any size acoustic guitar, as we saw. The dBA levels were quite similar even though you could tell that each larger guitar had a fuller sound with more bass. Using dBC or the the C-weighting (without the A weighting corrections, or a more linear number) would show noticeably different levels for guitars with more bass.

There is also the variability of each strum. If you watch carefully, the level bounced around quite a bit. I told you this was complicated! This Wikipedia page explains it in more detail, with pictures: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weighting_filter
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  #26  
Old 01-16-2019, 08:24 PM
Captain Jim Captain Jim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kramster View Post
Did someone say lunch?? I'm in!
In the words of the philosopher Lloyd...

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  #27  
Old 01-16-2019, 11:08 PM
JimCA JimCA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl49 View Post
Loudness is a complex issue. Most meters can read dBA or A-weighted decibels. The A-weighting noticeably rolls off the lows and some mids to make the reading better correspond with subjective loudness. I often use the example of a railroad locomotive at 80 dBA (50 feet) and a high-hat cymbal at 80 dBA (measured at 2 feet). One has a huge amount of low end and WAY more acoustic power, the other only high frequencies and less power. But two juries of listeners would describe each having similar overall loudness. It's not perfect, but is the best that the industry can do.

A sound meter set to read dBA will give similar readings for any size acoustic guitar, as we saw. The dBA levels were quite similar even though you could tell that each larger guitar had a fuller sound with more bass. Using dBC or the the C-weighting (without the A weighting corrections, or a more linear number) would show noticeably different levels for guitars with more bass.

There is also the variability of each strum. If you watch carefully, the level bounced around quite a bit. I told you this was complicated! This Wikipedia page explains it in more detail, with pictures: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weighting_filter
Rational post Earl! But there is still a mystery to me. Why is it that several report (Kramster, Kindness, Captain Jim's soundtest report listener's, me and others) that the X7 sounds louder than the larger Emeralds?

Maybe it's just that "Loudness is a complex issue".
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  #28  
Old 01-17-2019, 12:16 AM
byudzai byudzai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimCA View Post
Rational post Earl! But there is still a mystery to me. Why is it that several report (Kramster, Kindness, Captain Jim's soundtest report listener's, me and others) that the X7 sounds louder than the larger Emeralds?

Maybe it's just that "Loudness is a complex issue".
I've gotten deep into this topic before, once with musical acoustics, once with gun silencers.

Loudness is a subjective, rather than objective measure -- it's a measure of our perception of loudness at different frequencies rather than an objective, external value like temperature or weight. A guitar with an upward-shifted frequency response will probably register as "louder" -- this graph shows the wavy line of loudness and how poorly it corresponds to real, measurable sound pressure level.

So, if the X7 has a stronger harmonic frequency spectrum in the 3-4 KHz range, to which the human ear is most sensitive, it will sound louder than a overall-higher-dB guitar with a mellower harmonic response that isn't as active in that "notch" of maximum ear sensitivity.

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Last edited by byudzai; 01-17-2019 at 12:32 AM.
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  #29  
Old 01-17-2019, 01:47 AM
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If you have a phone and are curious how loud your guitars are . . .

SPLnFFT

NIOSH SLM (US Goverment)

Sound Level Analyzer Lite

Research document comparing accuracy of cell phone apps
(iOS, Android) compared to standalone measuring equipment. (pdf)
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  #30  
Old 01-17-2019, 07:30 AM
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kramster kramster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimCA View Post
Rational post Earl! But there is still a mystery to me. Why is it that several report (Kramster, Kindness, Captain Jim's soundtest report listener's, me and others) that the X7 sounds louder than the larger Emeralds?

Maybe it's just that "Loudness is a complex issue".

I said what now?
__________________
YUP....
Emerald: X-20, Center hole X-10 (Maple) and X-7 (redwood), Amicus, Paduak X7,X10, & X30, Spalted Chen Chen X 10
CA: Early OX and Cargo
Blackbird: Savoy
RainSong: CH-OM, CH-WS
Journey: OF660
McPherson: Touring(Honeycomb and gold), Sable
Some wood things by Epi, Harmony, Takamine, Good Time, PRS, Gypsy Music, keyboards, wind controllers.. etc
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