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  #16  
Old 11-27-2018, 11:21 AM
LouieAtienza LouieAtienza is offline
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Personally, I'm pretty sure the diagram refers to the process and not the end result. I prefer to just say horizontal grain or vertical grain, though grain at a bias I'd still call rift. Because, obviously, a log flatsawn will have one board cut through the center and will be perfectly "quartered" even though the process was flatsawing, while slicing a quartered log will yield one perfectly "quartered" board and others of varying degrees of rift.
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  #17  
Old 11-27-2018, 12:07 PM
runamuck runamuck is offline
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35 years ago I managed a hardwood lumber business. Back then, the National Hardwood Lumber Assoc. defined rift as 45 - 75 deg off perpendicular to the board's face and quarter-sawn as 75-90 degrees.

I think that the definitions have become somewhat squishy as the assoc. doesn't have the authority it once did.
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  #18  
Old 11-27-2018, 12:26 PM
John Arnold John Arnold is offline
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The diagram is wrong, because it shows a rift sawn log with vertical grain , but the illustration of the 'rift' board shows no ray fleck. That is impossible. Vertical grain boards (what Bruce calls quartersawn) WILL show ray fleck. Instead of just 'quartersawn', I call boards with 90 degree grain 'perfectly quartered', or simply 'vertical grain'. There is no ambiguity with these terms.
Quartersawing, being a process, produces vertical grain on the center (widest) boards, but less vertical as the cut gets further out. These narrower boards (with grain approaching 45 degrees) should be marketed as rift. In general, for a board to be labeled quartersawn, the grain must be at least 75 degrees to the face.
In times past, the term 'rift' was most commonly used with regard to oak, which due to the large aggregate rays, looks entirely different when the grain is perfectly vertical. The common term for this is 'tiger oak', which is highly variable in appearance due to the great range in size and frequency of the rays. True rift sawn oak is much more uniform in appearance.
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Because, obviously, a log flatsawn will have one board cut through the center and will be perfectly "quartered" even though the process was flatsawing, while slicing a quartered log will yield one perfectly "quartered" board and others of varying degrees of rift.
'Flatsawn' is a term for lumber that has some grain parallel with the face. A synonym is slab sawn. The term for cutting straight through a log is 'plainsawing' or 'throughsawing'. At least that part of the diagram is correct.
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  #19  
Old 11-27-2018, 12:55 PM
redir redir is offline
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A sawyer will have a totally different view of what QS wood is too, just to add more to the complication. For us luthiers it's best to just refer to it as vertical grain. For a sawyer a cut of wood is only QS when the drums are quartered and then sawn off the quarter. Period.

But for us a center cut slab sawn piece is considered QS because as John mentioned the annular rings are at 90deg. We don't care that it has been properly quartered and sawn just that the lines are vertical, hence just call it vertical grain.
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  #20  
Old 11-27-2018, 02:04 PM
John Arnold John Arnold is offline
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The common way to saw on the smaller sawmills is to 'box the heart'. This allows the cutting of logs that are too large for the sawmill to cut straight through the middle. Slabs are cut off each of four sides, making a square. This square is then through-sawn from both sides, leaving the 'dog board' (the board cut through the center) as a waste piece. This contains the heart, and has vertical grain on each edge. You can rip through the center of the dog board to make two quartered boards. But the fact that the log was squared first means that the boards are narrower than they would have been if the log had been quartered.
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  #21  
Old 11-27-2018, 02:37 PM
murrmac123 murrmac123 is offline
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I have always been under the impression that high grade soundboards are cleft/riven with a froe/axe/wedge/ from segments of the felled tree , measuring maybe 22-25" in height and that the cleft wedge-shaped blanks were then bandsawn to thickness to ensure a grain direction which for all practical purposes is totally vertical.

I didn't realize that industrial level sawmills even entered into the equation.

My impression is obviously erroneous.

No wonder there are so many complaints about runout (and yes, I know that coniferous trees grow with a very slight spiral twist)

Last edited by murrmac123; 11-27-2018 at 05:50 PM.
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  #22  
Old 11-27-2018, 02:51 PM
redir redir is offline
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Ok yes I see what you mean by boxing the heart. That would work well. The stuff that I cut from logs with only an Alaska mill I take a 6in center slab right through the heart and then maybe a 2-4in slab above and below that depending on the size of the log.

Here's a good video showing how QS is done. This is a nice large quarter of Rosewood. Those first several cuts will be perfectly vertical grained and as they get further down they will start to be off quarter yet still considered QS. Again what we want is vertical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kansL2IZzW0
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  #23  
Old 11-27-2018, 05:31 PM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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At 15 (long time ago), I worked at my neighbours lumberyard, pre oh and s, 9ft circular saw blade attached to a tractor engine. We did quarter and rift cuts. Classifying the wood by its annular rings on display at the endgrain is imo a poor way to classify, endgrain is more relative to tree trunk size than the type of quartersawn cut, the cut is classified by the way its cut, nothing more complicated than that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LouieAtienza View Post
a log flatsawn will have one board cut through the center and will be perfectly "quartered" even though the process was flatsawing, while slicing a quartered log will yield one perfectly "quartered" board and others of varying degrees of rift.
You just nailed why industries try to put descriptives on a product, you will also note, they say typically annular rings of this degree to create a category for saleable purposes, this way the sawyer can sell some of the wood cut during the flatsawing process as quarter sawn wood. They do this by removing the heart wood cut on a centre cut, so you end up with two perfectly quartered boards

I personally use the term flat sawn or quarter sawn in lutherie.

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Last edited by mirwa; 11-27-2018 at 06:46 PM.
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  #24  
Old 11-27-2018, 08:12 PM
redir redir is offline
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Steve, you are taking the sawyers point of view. That in the strict sense is true. It's either quarter sawn... Or it isn't!

But again, for us luthiers, it doesn't matter if the vertical grain section came from a flat sawn section or even an accidental section of a huge log that just so happened to yield a vertical section or a by the book quarter sawn section.

All we want is vertical grain.... runout is another story.

There was an interesting conversation about this I believe on the OLF years ago when an actual sawyer was offering QS brace wood and no matter how hard we tried to convince him that if it's flat sawn all we have to do is 'flip it' he could not seem to grasp that a flat sawn piece can never be 'quarter sawn.' I mean technically he's right but we don't care
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  #25  
Old 11-27-2018, 08:40 PM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redir View Post
Steve, you are taking the sawyers point of view. That in the strict sense is true. It's either quarter sawn... Or it isn't!
I totally agree, I personally just use the terms flatsawn or quartersawn in my discussions with customers.

This discussion is purely in response to the OP's question, who showed a sawyers wood cut picture

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  #26  
Old 11-27-2018, 09:06 PM
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justonwo justonwo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer View Post
The diagrams in the OP are contrary to the understanding I have operated with my entire working life. This kind of misinformation (in the context of lutherie) is very discouraging as it makes meaningful conversation that much more difficult. Perhaps it is not so much misinformation as an example of how the lexicon of language shifts over time.

When I say quarter sawn, I mean what is shown in the “rift” illustration, yet no purveyor is selling “rift” sawn wood. To me, quarter sawn means the annular rings, viewed from the end, are 90 degrees to the surface. Slab sawn would have any part of the board with the annular rings parallel to the surface. Rift would be in between, particularly where the board is neither quartered nor slabbed. Most lumber that is not slab cut is rift, as for the purposes of lutherie, quartered wood must be actually quarter sawn across its entire width. If not, assuming it is not slab, it is what I call rift. There is an ongoing discussion as to what degree of perfection is required for material to qualify as quarter sawn before it no longer qualifies. I admit to being at the hardcore end of the spectrum as I need to see no more that 3 degrees of deflection to label wood as quarter sawn.

Run out is another issue altogether, and has no direct bearing on an end grain diagram.

My nomenclature is that of the woodworker. The nomenclature of the sawyer, which I do not speak, may be another thing all together.
Completely agree with you. But if you look up rift sawn vs quartersawn this kind of diagram is ALL OVER the Internet, which is why it’s super confusing.
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  #27  
Old 01-10-2019, 07:10 PM
vpolineni vpolineni is offline
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  #28  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:32 PM
Otterhound Otterhound is offline
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Quarter sawing as well as rift sawing are processes .
Quartersawn is an end product that can be derived in 3 basic ways . Those 3 ways are quartersawing , rift sawing and flat sawing .
The quarter sawn piece derived from flat sawn will com from the center piece/s only . The quartersawing process will yield true quartersawn product from each of the first cuts from each quarter . Riftsawing will yield only quartersawn product .
Depending on where you are any who you learned from , the term of rift meaning 30-75 degrees to vertical may be called a b*****d cut . The *astar* cut is the term that I learned in the beginning . The term of rift wasn't even used .
This terminology can get very confusing when one or more parties prefer to argue instead of communicate . This can be very frustrating at times .
Of course , communication is the key and that means not arguing terminology at times . With a group of individuals that typically identifies luthiers , this can be very difficult to accomplish .
I saw that Bruce chimed in here . Ask him about our discussion about Catalpa if you get the chance . We both knew that we were right and it turned out that we both were , even though his Catalpa had a greenish hue to it mine tended towards red .
Find common ground and meet there .

Last edited by Basalt Beach; 01-11-2019 at 08:48 AM. Reason: #1
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  #29  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:55 PM
printer2 printer2 is offline
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I seem to remember John did a good video on cutting soundboards, I can never find it anymore.
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  #30  
Old 01-10-2019, 10:05 PM
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Bruce Sexauer Bruce Sexauer is offline
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It occurs to me the quartersawing and quartersawn are two entirely different things.
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