Blast from the past - Touring the old Composite Acoustics Factory

[Acousticado]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

Tom, with all due respect, if Emerald has developed a "more streamlined, efficient approach and processes" it sure hasn't translated to lower prices, more variety, or any measurable success for Alistair. Sadly the conversation on this sub forum is being dominated by folks loyal to Emerald, so it no longer represents reality, which is that after 15 years, Emerald is still in last place in sales, and product demand, with only two six string models available. Even Journey, a company that started building CF guitars just a few years ago, and had only one model till this year is outselling them by a good margin.

Look, I've discussed the business of building CF guitars with all the builders, including Alistair, and the general consensus is that if a builder has enough demand, and can afford them, using expensive aluminum molds is the way to go. In addition to using them, Joe at Blackbird recently started making his own aluminum molds. If there was a more efficient processes, everyone would be using it.

Hey Ted. The CA videos you and Ed posted merely caused me to ponder the manufacturing processes of the various CF builders with an observation based on many threads over time that Emerald is clearly more flexible than their competitors in offering a range of customizations at a reasonable cost that seem not available from other builders regardless of cost. That is all. It is true. It doesn't necessarily make one builder better than the other.

I really like CA guitars, I really like Emerald guitars. I own both. I really like what I'm seeing from the others and hope to eventually play and possibly own some even if I have to live within the limitations of their offerings. When the time comes, I have thought to do business with you because I like you, respect your vast knowledge and appreciate your input here.

That said, with all due respect, in my opinion, your comments express an air of negativity about Emerald where all I did was share a build process observation. I think I know why, but 'nuff said.

[Doubleneck]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

Tom, with all due respect, if Emerald has developed a "more streamlined, efficient approach and processes" it sure hasn't translated to lower prices, more variety, or any measurable success for Alistair. Sadly the conversation on this sub forum is being dominated by folks loyal to Emerald, so it no longer represents reality, which is that after 15 years, Emerald is still in last place in sales, and product demand, with only two six string models available. Even Journey, a company that started building CF guitars just a few years ago, and had only one model till this year is outselling them by a good margin.

Look, I've discussed the business of building CF guitars with all the builders, including Alistair, and the general consensus is that if a builder has enough demand, and can afford them, using expensive aluminum molds is the way to go. In addition to using them, Joe at Blackbird recently started making his own aluminum molds. If there was a more efficient processes, everyone would be using it.

"Sadly the conversation on this sub forum is being dominated by folks loyal to Emerald, so it no longer represents reality"

Wow, satisfied customers tend to be loyal ones, Emerald does a lot of very unique things that garner this loyal following.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Acousticado

Hey Ted. The CA videos you and Ed posted merely caused me to ponder the manufacturing processes of the various CF builders with an observation based on many threads over time that Emerald is clearly more flexible than their competitors in offering a range of customizations at a reasonable cost that seem not available from other builders regardless of cost. That is all. It is true. It doesn't necessarily make one builder better than the other.

I really like CA guitars, I really like Emerald guitars. I own both. I really like what I'm seeing from the others and hope to eventually play and possibly own some even if I have to live within the limitations of their offerings. When the time comes, I have thought to do business with you because I like you, respect your vast knowledge and appreciate your input here.

That said, with all due respect, in my opinion, your comments express an air of negativity about Emerald where all I did was share a build process observation. I think I know why, but 'nuff said.

I appreciate the kind words, Tom, but what you did was suggest that Emerald was more flexible, and more reasonably priced thanks to some streamlined process they discovered, which could not be further from the truth. As noted, other than a few limited interest models that few of us will ever think about buying, they have but two models for the average guitar player, an OM, and a 7/8 size travel guitar. The US builders all have between 6-10 base models, and in the case of Rainsong, over 100 SKU's. And the prices, which should be lower for Emerald given that they sell direct and do not have to buy expensive aluminum molds, are not. In fact, you can buy a US made Rainsong Shorty for $150 less than what a basic X20 will run you, and a Composite Acoustics OX for the same price. If US made is not important to you, than the new Journey Carbon Roadtrip model is available now for $500 less than the X20 with similar electronics.

The negativity you are picking up comes from watching this sub section get taken over by friends of Alistair, not for his guitars. I lobbied for this section, even encouraged the CF builders to become sponsors, but every week I see less and less useful info here. Were I someone looking to buy my first non wood guitar, and I stumbled on to this sub forum, I would not be provided accurate info. Frankly, I think members of this for looking for info on non wood guitars, would be better served asking their questions in in the General section.

[Acousticado]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

I appreciate the kind words, Tom, but what you did was suggest that Emerald was more flexible, and more reasonably priced thanks to some streamlined process they discovered, which could not be further from the truth. As noted, other than a few limited interest models that few of us will ever think about buying, they have but two models for the average guitar player, an OM, and a 7/8 size travel guitar. The US builders all have between 6-10 base models, and in the case of Rainsong, over 100 SKU's. And the prices, which should be lower for Emerald given that they sell direct and do not have to buy expensive aluminum molds, are not. In fact, you can buy a US made Rainsong Shorty for $150 less than what a basic X20 will run you, and a Composite Acoustics OX for the same price. If US made is not important to you, than the new Journey Carbon Roadtrip model is available now for $500 less than the X20 with similar electronics.

The negativity you are picking up comes from watching this sub section get taken over by friends of Alistair, not for his guitars. I lobbied for this section, even encouraged the CF builders to become sponsors, but every week I see less and less useful info here. Were I someone looking to buy my first non wood guitar, and I stumbled on to this sub forum, I would not be provided accurate info. Frankly, I think members of this for looking for info on non wood guitars, would be better served asking their questions in in the General section.

Wow. I certainly can't speak for others, but although I admire what Alistair/Emerald is doing in all facets of their operation, I am not a friend. I am a satisfied customer, that is all. There was a time when I felt the same way about Ellis Seal/CA. I'll likely feel the same about Rainsong, Blackbird, Journey, whichever, if/when I own and love their guitars. But right now, Emerald seems to be simply hitting a lot of the right marks with folks here, so their success is subjective. It seems to be working for them. It's up to the other builders to forge their presence here to develop buyer relationships. I'd say that Rob Bailey's presence here has garnered him/Journey some fans.

[Steve Christens]

Getting back to the Composite Acoustics factory.........

Years ago in the March/April 2003 issue of Flatpicking Guitar Magazine there was a review of Composite Acoustic Guitars and their manufacturing method.

To quote:

"The Back, sides, neck, and peg head of the CA guitars are all molded into one piece..........The tops are made from carbon fiber fabric and epoxy resin. Since the neck and body are all one piece, there is no way to change the neck angle. You cannot adjust a truss rod or reset the neck once this piece has been constructed. Therefore, before the top is epoxied onto the body, the bonding angle of the top is trimmed to match the neck angle. In other words, the body is cut to an angle which is consistent with the neck angle and thus provides the correct string height over the length of the entire fretboard. Instead of setting the "neck angle," as in traditional guitar building, CA sets the "top angle.""

Interesting. Yet when I've viewed the various CA videos in the past, I don't recall ever seeing any mention of this step that was done back in 2003. Sort of makes me wonder if they started to omit this step to speed things up. Which if true, could sure go a long way towards explaining the "neck angle" issues that CA was known for.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Steve Christens

Getting back to the Composite Acoustics factory.........

Great idea, Steve!

Years ago in the March/April 2003 issue of Flatpicking Guitar Magazine there was a review of Composite Acoustic Guitars and their manufacturing method.

To quote:

"The Back, sides, neck, and peg head of the CA guitars are all molded into one piece..........The tops are made from carbon fiber fabric and epoxy resin. Since the neck and body are all one piece, there is no way to change the neck angle. You cannot adjust a truss rod or reset the neck once this piece has been constructed. Therefore, before the top is epoxied onto the body, the bonding angle of the top is trimmed to match the neck angle. In other words, the body is cut to an angle which is consistent with the neck angle and thus provides the correct string height over the length of the entire fretboard. Instead of setting the "neck angle," as in traditional guitar building, CA sets the "top angle.""

Interesting. Yet when I've viewed the various CA videos in the past, I don't recall ever seeing any mention of this step that was done back in 2003. Sort of makes me wonder if they started to omit this step to speed things up. Which if true, could sure go a long way towards explaining the "neck angle" issues that CA was known for.

Although the videos don't show it, it was, and believe still is part of the process.

[Doubleneck]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

I appreciate the kind words, Tom, but what you did was suggest that Emerald was more flexible, and more reasonably priced thanks to some streamlined process they discovered, which could not be further from the truth. As noted, other than a few limited interest models that few of us will ever think about buying, they have but two models for the average guitar player, an OM, and a 7/8 size travel guitar. The US builders all have between 6-10 base models, and in the case of Rainsong, over 100 SKU's. And the prices, which should be lower for Emerald given that they sell direct and do not have to buy expensive aluminum molds, are not. In fact, you can buy a US made Rainsong Shorty for $150 less than what a basic X20 will run you, and a Composite Acoustics OX for the same price. If US made is not important to you, than the new Journey Carbon Roadtrip model is available now for $500 less than the X20 with similar electronics.

The negativity you are picking up comes from watching this sub section get taken over by friends of Alistair, not for his guitars. I lobbied for this section, even encouraged the CF builders to become sponsors, but every week I see less and less useful info here. Were I someone looking to buy my first non wood guitar, and I stumbled on to this sub forum, I would not be provided accurate info. Frankly, I think members of this for looking for info on non wood guitars, would be better served asking their questions in in the General section.

Talk about misinformation, why would you compare the price of a Rainsong Shorty to the Emerald X20. It is a shorter scale length guitar and a fiberglass hybrid. The fairer comparison would be to a full carbon, full size Rainsong like the WS-1000. But then I guess it wouldn't prove your point?

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

...Wow, satisfied customers tend to be loyal ones, Emerald does a lot of very unique things that garner this loyal following.

Steve, are you suggestion the other builder don't have the same loyal following??

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

Talk about misinformation, why would you compare the price of a Rainsong Shorty to the Emerald X20. It is a shorter scale length guitar and a fiberglass hybrid. The fairer comparison would be to a full carbon, full size Rainsong like the WS-1000. But then I guess it wouldn't prove your point?

For my comparison the scale is irrelevant, but if you're worried about the cost savings of the hybrid back and sides, keep in mind that Rainsong uses pre-preg materials, and a unidirectional top on the CH-OM.

No matter, if you prefer, we can use the full gloss OM1100N2 for comparison, but we would need to compare it to the full gloss Artisan X20, which will set you back about the same. Course if we're going to nit pick, we would need to know the cost of adding some Abalone fretboard inlays to that X20, and the savings that come from using standard CF instead of the pre-preg used on the Rainsong.

Or, you could just concede that Tom was wrong when he suggested that Emeralds are more reasonably priced than other CF brands.

Ok, it's 6pm on the west coast which means it's time to take my wife out to dinner, and stop talking shop.

Now how about those CA videos?

[Acousticado]

Ted, you still seem to have missed my main point that whatever build process/equipment Emerald is using, it's apparent that it permits a unique range of flexible options to the customer that other builders can't seem to offer...and at reasonable prices in the scheme of things. That's it.

[Sharon M]

What a shame this sub forum is coming to this, I need to agree with Ted this has become theEmerald forum now so there is no reason to read here anymore for me. Used to be the first place I read every day but lately all that's here only pertains to one brand so, unless you own that brand this forum is no longer interesting.

[Acousticado]

Originally Posted by Sharon M

What a shame this sub forum is coming to this, I need to agree with Ted this has become theEmerald forum now so there is no reason to read here anymore for me. Used to be the first place I read every day but lately all that's here only pertains to one brand so, unless you own that brand this forum is no longer interesting.

Well, then contribute to change that. It is not intended. I'm sure everyone here would appreciate discussion on most brands/models. I know I do. Emerald has just caught member attention with some awesome looking and playing guitars. What's wrong with that? It's likely just a phase where other guitars/models will come to the forefront.

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Sharon M

What a shame this sub forum is coming to this, I need to agree with Ted this has become theEmerald forum now so there is no reason to read here anymore for me. Used to be the first place I read every day but lately all that's here only pertains to one brand so, unless you own that brand this forum is no longer interesting.

All the posts here are archived. There is a bunch of great information for all kinds of carbon fiber (and e-koa) guitars. That doesn't go away because new posts are made. For me, the forum is not diminished by enthusiastic posters.

I have no inside track on which manufacturer is selling how many of what model, but where are the NGD posts from buyers of the other brands? I don't buy a guitar because "everyone else is buying one" and goodness knows I could have bought less expensive guitars - the Emeralds I've bought are unique guitars that look great, sound great, and have ergonomics (comfort) unlike any other guitars I own. Frankly, they make my other guitars seem a bit "old fashioned." Oh, they still sound great, but they don't have the same pizazz to me that they once did.

Does that make me enthusiastic about my Emeralds? Well, sure. Should someone else be enthusiastic about their CA? I would hope so. How about that cool new e-koa Savoy? I have no doubt when those hit the streets in any number, there will be posts here about them. Need a guitar that folds up into a backpack? Speak up Journey OF660 owners. Want a traditional shape CF guitar that is similar in size to the wood manufacturers? RainSong has a model for you.

All that information on those other brands is still here. Sean from Emerald is smart about responding to questions here. Where are the other manufacturers when it comes to a presence on this sub-forum? We have a wealth of info from owners, friendly folks who are willing to share their experiences, but most CF manufacturers are missing the boat by not participating here. Ted does a fine job of keeping the other manufacturers interests here; I have bought guitars from him (wood and carbon fiber) and he knows customer service, too.

There are carbon fiber guitars for all kinds of buyers. And great information for those buyers right here in this sub-forum. Have there been a lot of Emerald posts lately? Yep - they've been making some beautiful guitars and owners are excited to share that. But, my X20 bliss doesn't diminish another's Lucky 13 excitement. Seems to me that the more we share here, the more we learn about each other's guitar choices.

This sub-forum is at its best when we share. I browse through the first page of the main forum these days, but spend most of my time here... with those who understand and share the enthusiasm we have for these carbon fiber offerings.

Captain Jim

[laughingskunk]

That is so neat to see. I have had two CA's. A Bluegrass Performer which I got locally and sold.. To purchase a CA which I bought from LA which I will never sell- both pre Peavey. It was nice to see the home were my baby was born.

[GuitarDoc]

Originally Posted by Sharon M

What a shame this sub forum is coming to this, I need to agree with Ted this has become theEmerald forum now so there is no reason to read here anymore for me. Used to be the first place I read every day but lately all that's here only pertains to one brand so, unless you own that brand this forum is no longer interesting.

I have a CA and read this forum daily. I'm excited for my emerald brethren even if other brand owners don't speak much. doc

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Thanks for chiming in, Sharon.

Jim, I guess the thousand of people who buy Blackbirds, Composite Acoustics, Journeys, McPhersons and Rainsongs every year are just not that enthusiastic about posting on forums.

Originally Posted by laughingskunk

That is so neat to see. I have had two CA's. A Bluegrass Performer which I got locally and sold.. To purchase a CA which I bought from LA which I will never sell- both pre Peavey. It was nice to see the home were my baby was born.

I was happy to see Ed's video of the Blade, I had not seen that one. Made me feel even better about keeping one.