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  #16  
Old 11-21-2011, 11:27 AM
kosulin kosulin is offline
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There is more: intonation is also action dependant! When you fret the string, you stretch it making it longer and thinner compared to the distance between fret and saddle and to the thickness of an open string, and the higher the action and the higher the postion is, the bigger this difference is, and as a result, the sound is usually more flat on high frets with high action. Some luthiers compensate fret positions to neutralize this effect for recommended action. These calculations are not trivial. You can Google for dissertation of Ernst Frisch who proposed a system for measuring the right fret locations.
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Last edited by kosulin; 11-21-2011 at 01:08 PM.
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  #17  
Old 11-29-2011, 02:08 PM
Karl Ray Karl Ray is offline
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Ever think about one of these?? Earvana compensated Tuning systems?

http://www.earvana.com/index.html


I put one of their nuts on an older Kramer acoustic guitar, and Problem solved!! These things really do work... just another something else to consider..
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  #18  
Old 01-19-2014, 05:48 AM
Honch Honch is offline
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Default Bumping and old thread

I don't care anymore if I bump an old thread on nylon guitar intonation. I just fill in what has not being mentioned yet, and I give a damm if it's four years old, because nothing has really happened with the string manufacturers.

First, it's NOT about the guitars, as much as it is about the strings!

As Wcap said, the unwound treble strings of nylon are ALWAYS prone to intonation inconsistenices and NO compensation, neither at the nut nor bridge saddle will be able to fix this ever. You can buy a bunch of the most expensive Savarez singles g-string, and maybe one out of ten WILL HAVE THE SAME DIAMETER THROUGHOUT ITS ENTIRE LENGTH when brought up to right tuning and tension. No Earvana nut, True Temperament frets, Buzz Feiten tuning, or fanned fret system will ever fix this, even remotely better.

I find this still peculiar that no moveable bridge system has been built in to all nylon string classical guitars - for individual strings - because there, on these guitars, it's where it is most needed due to the manufacturing inconsistencies of ALL nylon strings. They differ too much from batch to batch. Otherwise AUGUSTINE wouldn't have to put the following statement out on their site regarding one of their string sets:

http://www.stringsbymail.com/store/c...64/classic-65/

"The Augustine Classic series strings have sweet trebles and rich warm basses. This series uses a nylon monofilament resin developed by Dupont, a beautiful sounding string, (but can be prone to inconsistencies in intonation in the trebles due to a softer formulation of nylon)."

Read it and weep. And so it is with all others too, give or take a few cents here and there. You'll never get rid of the intonation variations between strings regardless of what make, and exact same model, tension or material. Even a fully individual adjustable saddle for nylon string bridges won't ever make the diameter of any string equal throughout its length.

This is why I gave up on nylon and classical years ago. People think "you tune and intonate with your fingers then!". Well, try to do that when barreing a chord and try to make it go flatter with your barré finger only. Single notes have never been a problem. If these intonation inconsistencies where always the SAME when changing strings out, you could probably hone it in with your fingering, but when it changes all of the time, so much that you have to re-learn an "re-hone" (?!) your fingering when playing your piece, each time you swap a single treble string out, is a big no no in my book. Mainly due to patience and nothing else, and I know that I don't have to do this on other steel string or electric guitars. Why keep on changin nylon strings out until you find ONE that happens by chance have right intonation along the strings length, all of the time? I have other things to do...

String manufacturers knows this, and luthiers as well, but yet still they carry on as if nothing happened. And comes up with bogus Earvana, TT and whatever fret, nut compensation and thinks "one-intonation-fits-all". And charge premium dollars for their stuff (especially above 3 K for nylon string classical).

The only solution (as someone else said, start playing violin) is to make classical nylon stringed guitar fretless. All intonation is done with your fingers.

Until then you'll keep on hunting for that elusive classical guitar with better intonation than before. The search will go on, and you'll never find it regardless of price. If you find one, yes, it's a Las Vegas casino win, that that set of strings just happened to be right, for that guitar, at that time. Try to change that string set out and you'll get different results. And on it goes.

Last edited by Honch; 01-19-2014 at 06:03 AM.
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  #19  
Old 01-19-2014, 07:35 AM
ZippyChip ZippyChip is offline
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I also fight with tuning on my nylon guitars and always have. All hell breaks loose when I tune to open G--which I play quite often (Hawaiian taropatch tuning).

A strobe tuner will help.
My favorite tuner is a Peterson virtual strobe tuner. It allows saving user temperaments so after tweaking and fussing I can save and go back to it again.
Even when strings are changed and the temperament is a bit off, I get close enough to need only minor tweaking here and there.
Does not solve the problem but improves the outcome.
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  #20  
Old 01-19-2014, 07:54 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honch View Post
I don't care anymore if I bump an old thread on nylon guitar intonation. I just fill in what has not being mentioned yet, and I give a damm if it's four years old, because nothing has really happened with the string manufacturers.

First, it's NOT about the guitars, as much as it is about the strings!

....
well, you got your accuracy and you've got your precision. see this recent thread here. just because strings can't be perfectly precise, i don't think that is enough reason to keep a classical guitar intonation from being accurate.

in other words, not improving the intonation of nylon string guitars won't help the problem or counter-balance it, they will just make it worse.

it seems pretty easy, with a good tuner, to check the amount of variance in different packages of strings. i might start doing that.

also, this thread is closer to two years old. sorry, couldn't let that slip by.
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  #21  
Old 01-20-2014, 02:39 AM
Honch Honch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mc1 View Post
well, you got your accuracy and you've got your precision. see this recent thread here. just because strings can't be perfectly precise, i don't think that is enough reason to keep a classical guitar intonation from being accurate.

in other words, not improving the intonation of nylon string guitars won't help the problem or counter-balance it, they will just make it worse.

it seems pretty easy, with a good tuner, to check the amount of variance in different packages of strings. i might start doing that.

also, this thread is closer to two years old. sorry, couldn't let that slip by.
Yes, ok, two years old then! I stated I didn't care if it even was close to 4 years old. I think it started a bit earlier, like the end of 2010, but it was at the end of 2011. Sorry, my bad. But then it's not that old then, and not being accused for bumping a too old thread.

That thread you are referring to, are about tuners and accuracy and preciseness. I am relating to - just one of them - string manufacturer that actually states that their treble strings are PRONE TO INTONATION INCONSISTENCIES. How many of the other ones actually states this? Really. I find a lot of other brands that these inconsistencies are too large and out of the normal fingering error margin (like, out of the fingering adjustments for intonation).

Why should Augustine be different from other brands?

One thing that bugs me a lot when all these intonation problems - particularly nylon strings are - are discussed, it's always if the guitar should be in tune with itself and all these mumbo jumbo fixes that there is to it. Earvana, BFTS, TrueTemperament.

Very little discussion is held - say - if you should be in an ensemble and play with other instruments. Does YOUR guitar tuning and intonation holds up against say any other instrument that can't be tuned right on the spot, and why YOUR guitar should be the main tuning reference for the rest of the instruments? Say a piano, and any other mallet instrument or - god forbid - an oboe should turn up? These instruments are all very often used in classical settings, (i e with nylon stringed guitar) so it's not a rare event that turns up just once in a blue moon.

If you're just a solo recitalist, then you can decide everything for yourself, and let it go. As fast as you play along with some other FIXED temperament instrument, you're bound to have problems. And if you tune up to them, your classical guitar will have limitations in intonation of both in what key you're able to play in, and how far up the neck you're able to go.

I am not saying that it is no use in trying to get a guitars bridge as close as possible in intonation, but what was missing in this thread, is that nylon strings (especially unwound trebles only) does have a too much variation and error margin, in diameters when stretched, so they will always have too much intonation inconsistencies, that any kind of minute and delicate bridge, saddle job, for getting intonation perfectly right (FOR YOU AND YOUR FINGERS AND ACTION ONLY) is actually quite futile. In the end. You will only be able to make perfect intonation for the set that are currently on your guitar at any given time.

The wound string I have no problems with at all. They tune up and intonate quite well, and most important - whatever intonation you've set them up to - they stay consistent when changing out them, set after set. Provided, of course, that you stay to the same make, model, and tension. Not so, with the unwound trebles.

I think D'addario has some composite laser sorted mumbo jumbo, but at the compromise of totally different tone to them.

Last edited by Honch; 01-20-2014 at 02:53 AM.
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  #22  
Old 01-20-2014, 02:59 AM
Honch Honch is offline
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I mean, it is as simple as this:

Question to all of you out there, who owns and plays as much nylon strings, as you do acoustic steel strings, and electric guitars:

Which one of them are the ones that you have to fight intonation on, the most?

The same rules (of 18) applies to all of them. It ain't rocket science for anyone anymore to line up bridge, nut, saddle and frets, tight tolerances and right.
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  #23  
Old 01-20-2014, 08:05 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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i may dig out some guitars and my tuner and see which have the best/worst intonation. i'm not convinced that classical guiitar strings, especially rectified strings, vary enough to significantly affect intonation. however, that is a hunch, and as i mentioned earlier, it should be easy enough to test with a good tuner.

also, because i can't let things go, i think oboes have lots of issues with intonation. http://www.tsmp.org/band/band/allen_intone_oboe.html

Last edited by mc1; 01-22-2014 at 11:33 AM. Reason: tpyo
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  #24  
Old 01-20-2014, 09:55 AM
Honch Honch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mc1 View Post
also, because i can't let things go, i think oboes have lots of issues with intonation. http://www.tsmp.org/band/band/allen_intone_oboe.html
That's why I mentioned it. I said "god forbid" in between my statement.
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  #25  
Old 01-20-2014, 10:01 AM
Honch Honch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mc1 View Post
I'm not convinced that classical guiitar strings, especially rectified strings, vary enough to significantly affect intonation.
Then why do you think Augustine puts out such a "warning" or statement regarding one model of their acoustic set, then? I tried to find a similar "warning" or "caveat emptor" on any acoustic or electric STEEL string. Not to be found!! Even Dáddario has adressed this on their Pro-Arte series.

Mind you, it's mainly just about the trebles. The unwound nylon strings.

Augustine are not alone on this. However, they're about the only one confessing this. Granted, that any of their other series may not have this "inconsistency". Maybe that's why I've never ever seen any GAUGE listing on any nylon string package? Just "high tension" or "low tension" and anything in between.
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  #26  
Old 01-22-2014, 10:51 AM
RWG RWG is offline
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I once attended an informal class given by Christopher Parkening when he was in town for a concert. He said for certain passages it was best to move up and down the neck to keep the melody on the same string instead of leaving the hand in one position and crossing over strings. I can't remember the reasons or the context, this was a long time ago. I do remember he stressed that in some situations it sounded better to stay with one or two strings even if you had to move all over the neck.
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  #27  
Old 01-22-2014, 11:35 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWG View Post
I once attended an informal class given by Christopher Parkening when he was in town for a concert. He said for certain passages it was best to move up and down the neck to keep the melody on the same string instead of leaving the hand in one position and crossing over strings. I can't remember the reasons or the context, this was a long time ago. I do remember he stressed that in some situations it sounded better to stay with one or two strings even if you had to move all over the neck.
i would guess for tonal consistency. different strings can sound different tonally.
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  #28  
Old 01-22-2014, 11:36 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honch View Post
That's why I mentioned it. I said "god forbid" in between my statement.
i get you now. i missed your point earlier.
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  #29  
Old 01-22-2014, 12:03 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honch View Post
It ain't rocket science for anyone anymore to line up bridge, nut, saddle and frets, tight tolerances and right.
That's true. However, few manufacturers do what is necessary.

First, the worst strings I have ever used, bar none, for intonation inconstancies are Augustine. No other string I have used is anywhere near as bad in its intonation. Perhaps they have changed, since I haven't used them in decades.

Generally, I find D'Addario strings to intonate very well and be quite consistent.

Second, nylon strings generally require less compensation than steel strings. This makes them easier to compensate. Note, however, on steel string guitars, it is the B string that requires considerably more compensation that its adjacent strings, while on a nylon string guitar it is the G string. Using a wider saddle than the standard factory 1/8" or 5/32" is required to best compensate a nylon string guitar. A narrower saddle runs out of compensation range, just as it does on a steel string guitar, and is one of the reasons that steel string guitars are also not well compensated (i.e. have good intonation).

When well compensated, at nut, at saddle, a nylon string guitar can have very good intonation (i.e. within about 2 cents over the range of the instrument). Very few manufacturers achieve that, but it is possible. Yes, string type, tension and brand contribute to the result, as does playing technique and string height.

In short, most guitars - steel string or nylon - have quite poor intonation. But, it doesn't have to be that way. Relatively few players demand better, and relatively few manufacturers deliver better. Regardless, you still have to deal with the difference between equal temperament and what the ear wants to hear as "in tune". That issue exists on all guitars, not just nylon string ones.
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  #30  
Old 01-22-2014, 06:36 PM
bohemian bohemian is offline
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"intonation is also action dependant"

I agree , but in my world it is independEnt.
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