After Flamenco is there Anything Else?

[BuleriaChk]

Someone once asked Carmen Amaya if she was expressing the spirit of her people in her dance, and she replied "I'm really just trying not to make a mistake.."

Right...

[oldtimeblues]

it would be pretty pathetic if I created music that only people on the outside just like me could understand. I play music for lonely musicians who play alone in their room at night. There may not be that many in my particular socio economic race or religion or similar upbringing, but there are many scattered all over the world. I was just a normal white kid until I inherited my Uncles pre war 78 rpm boogie woogie collection. So that's what I was raised on. One thing leads to another, and before you know it we are all back in Africa listenting to the drummers play at night to scare away the lions.

People move around the globe and take their music with them and also, if they are like me are more interested in hearing other ideas than preserving some pure musical culture.

But still, I have an idea in my head that I am always trying to capture or enjoy or share. I just want to make music that moves me as much as other music I have heard.

Some of us black sheep will never be able to embrace a style which is defined only by the past.

My guess is, if the original poster is bored already by Flemenco, or wondering, "What next?" He is just on a journey. And aren't we all?

Some of us are looking for something new. Some of us are just trying to get back home.

But getting back to Flamenco. I don't think the term Flamemco fusion is so distasteful. We may not understand the culture and history meaning of many different Flemenco tunes, but we do understand the technique, and how does it hurt you if I introduce a little Flamenco technique into my Blues?

[redir]

I have a flamenco guitar but every time I play it sounds like a classical guitar. I just don't 'get' it. But I do love to listen to it. I've also got a Selmer guitar and don't 'get' that either. I can attribute a lot of that to not growing up in a culture where that music is prevalent but then I know white American guys who could easily hang with Bereli Lagrene so really they are just excuses for lack of talent.

Anyone who has the talent can embrace a style. You might consider playing a style of music that it outside of your culture more as acting or theater, that's okay, but there are many a fine actor out there.

I have to say though, and to go back to a point made on page one in this zombie thread, when I hear someone playing a Classical or Flamenco guitar with a pick it makes me cringe

[mr. beaumont]

Don't go to Mexico, then. (Seriously, I never get the hate of plectrum on nylon...it's done all over)

Ah, the "T" word. Talent. This has little to do with it, really. The real word is "immersion." These styles...flamenco, gypsy jazz/jazz in general, some others...they really aren't for "dabbling," if you really want the sound...

And that's why some folks who are into these styles deeply get called snobs...but I mean, you have to look at what goes into learning. Anybody can play a Phrygian Dominant scale over a Dm-C-Bb-A progression...but that doesn't make them a flamenco player! There's some dedication required.

[Red_Label]

Originally Posted by oldtimeblues

nothing worse than listening to a Chinese person trying to play Bach. They're not even German are they?

Indeed! Since Clapton, SRV and other "blues" players didn't go and actually give-up everything, and live the life of a blues player in Chicago or the Mississippi delta... they had NO clue what they were really doing and were merely a very poor imitation (and rip-off artists really). So their contribution is no more worthy than that of a naive child.


For those who may not have picked-up what the above sentence was trying to illustrate... please allow me to elaborate. Just because someone really likes the music of a certain style/genre, but doesn't have the time or means to immerse themselves in only that style for the rest of their days... does not make the art that they create (that may incorporate some of what they learned dabbling in other styles) somehow "lesser". Yes... it may not be authentic or pure... but in the cases of many artists... they aren't actually going for pure. If they were, they'd move to the birthplace of the style and become one of its practitioners as if they were born there.

Music is art. Art is subjective and the big wide world of art is far too varied and rich to spend all of your time pointing-out the perceived shortcomings of other artists. Just create your art and those inspired by it will come to you, and those who aren't won't. The snobbery that is sometimes displayed here and elsewhere is distasteful to me and certainly doesn't inspire me to delve deeper into the art that the smug poster claims to want to spread the word about. If the shoe fits... wear it. If not, please disregard my rant.

[BuleriaChk]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Don't go to Mexico, then. (Seriously, I never get the hate of plectrum on nylon...it's done all over)

You get really fast runs with a pick ("shredding", but you miss the complex rasgueados, arpeggios, thumb techniques, of which there are very many, and contribute to Flamenco's unique expression on a Flamenco guitar. (one can play solo Flamenco on a classical guitar, but one misses the bright "punch" of the rasgueos intended to accompany a dancer or singer...)

Also those fast runs are extremely easy with a pick (especially when noodling in pentatonic), but two and three finger picado in all their variations are much more difficult physically. Same with pick strumming vs. rasgueados... ALL integrated with the unique compas (metric rhythm) structures that characterize Flamenco.

So it is for guitarists not playing traditional Flamenco and accepted as "Flamenco Nuevo" by those that understand and/or value little of the (dare I say it?) "pure" well, ok, traditional Flamenco art..

"Each to their own" said the old lady as she kissed a cow...

well, ok, unless the old lady is Madonna.... can I be the cow?

[oldtimeblues]

Originally Posted by Red_Label

Indeed! Since Clapton, SRV and other "blues" players didn't go and actually give-up everything, and live the life of a blues player in Chicago or the Mississippi delta... they had NO clue what they were really doing and were merely a very poor imitation (and rip-off artists really). So their contribution is no more worthy than that of a naive child.


For those who may not have picked-up what the above sentence was trying to illustrate... please allow me to elaborate. Just because someone really likes the music of a certain style/genre, but doesn't have the time or means to immerse themselves in only that style for the rest of their days... does not make the art that they create (that may incorporate some of what they learned dabbling in other styles) somehow "lesser". Yes... it may not be authentic or pure... but in the cases of many artists... they aren't actually going for pure. If they were, they'd move to the birthplace of the style and become one of its practitioners as if they were born there.

Music is art. Art is subjective and the big wide world of art is far too varied and rich to spend all of your time pointing-out the perceived shortcomings of other artists. Just create your art and those inspired by it will come to you, and those who aren't won't. The snobbery that is sometimes displayed here and elsewhere is distasteful to me and certainly doesn't inspire me to delve deeper into the art that the smug poster claims to want to spread the word about. If the shoe fits... wear it. If not, please disregard my rant.

the best thing that ever happened to B.B. King was Eric Clapton introduced a whole new generation to his old music. And the circle continues unbroken. Some went on to jazz and fusion and others went backwards to Mississippi and Africa, all without ever leaving the comfort of our home. You don't have to be a slave to find comfort in the music of slaves. Especially if you are in a dead end job or relationship or addiction. But even if you are a slave, when you first hear Flemenco you know there is some freedom there which is quite inspiring. Same when you listen to Bach and realize there is really a lot of music which just exists in your own mathmatical brain.

I'm all for being a snob and protecting my chosen music, but I'm also all for letting anybody in that may find something in it they like even if they don't respect the tradition.

But getting back to Flamenco, and the original poster who asks if there is anything beyond that, you have to be concerned that he has simply "done flamenco" and looking for something new. Been there done that. Wasted a lot of my youth looking for something "new."

I would love to be a Flamenco player, I love the music although very rarely listen to it, and knew right from the get go I had chops, but not flamenco chops, and no patience to learn yet another new culture. At one time I took it to the extreme and only wrote computer music since that was really the only culture I thought I knew.

I think all of us have a lot more culture hidden in us and sometimes strange music from lands we never knew awakens those memories in us and sounds like home.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by BuleriaChk

You get really fast runs with a pick ("shredding", but you miss the complex rasgueados, arpeggios, thumb techniques, of which there are very many, and contribute to Flamenco's unique expression on a Flamenco guitar. (one can play solo Flamenco on a classical guitar, but one misses the bright "punch" of the rasgueos intended to accompany a dancer or singer...)

Also those fast runs are extremely easy with a pick (especially when noodling in pentatonic), but two and three finger picado in all their variations are much more difficult physically. Same with pick strumming vs. rasgueados... ALL integrated with the unique compas (metric rhythm) structures that characterize Flamenco.

So it is for guitarists not playing traditional Flamenco and accepted as "Flamenco Nuevo" by those that understand and/or value little of the (dare I say it?) "pure" well, ok, traditional Flamenco art..

"Each to their own" said the old lady as she kissed a cow...

well, ok, unless the old lady is Madonna.... can I be the cow?

Well, I agree, I wasn't talking about playing flamenco with a pick. I don't think you read the rest of my post.

[oldtimeblues]

and you can go the other way, instead of searching for the "quick attack" you can start looking for the deep bass, and you may find you have to go all the way to Mali to find the djembe players who can teach you how to play that Flemenco bass you are looking for.

If it is quick attack you are looking for, nothing better than the Buddy Rich snare drum rudiments. Beats the heck out of anything you will find in the mainstream classical etudes.

[BuleriaChk]

Originally Posted by oldtimeblues

and you can go the other way, instead of searching for the "quick attack" you can start looking for the deep bass, and you may find you have to go all the way to Mali to find the djembe players who can teach you how to play that Flemenco bass you are looking for.

If it is quick attack you are looking for, nothing better than the Buddy Rich snare drum rudiments. Beats the heck out of anything you will find in the mainstream classical etudes.

Heck. I can accompany my Flamenco Bulerias with a "concert for freight train and sparrow" with sub-bass grunts from EDM (Komplete) and cinematic percussion from Heavyocity... all created with an Native Instrument VST's in Ableton Live using a Push 2.

I have all that equipment, but so far, no luck.... (well, ok, I don't play classical etudes - although I did play "Recuerdos" at one time....

[oldtimeblues]

Originally Posted by BuleriaChk

Heck. I can accompany my Flamenco Bulerias with a "concert for freight train and sparrow" with sub-bass grunts from EDM (Komplete) and cinematic percussion from Heavyocity... all created with an Native Instrument VST's in Ableton Live using a Push 2.

I have all that equipment, but so far, no luck.... (well, ok, I don't play classical etudes - although I did play "Recuerdos" at one time....

well chuck, I checked out your utube, and that led me to the guy who explains flemenco...a better question to ask would be, "If you get into Flemenco, is there any way out?"

Flemenco is the black hole for guitar players. If you don't believe me just listen to chucks youtube, once you start listening you just can't stop. Mothers don't let your guitar players grow up to be Flamenco.

[BuleriaChk]

Originally Posted by oldtimeblues

well chuck, I checked out your utube, and that led me to the guy who explains flemenco...a better question to ask would be, "If you get into Flemenco, is there any way out?"

Flemenco is the black hole for guitar players. If you don't believe me just listen to chucks youtube, once you start listening you just can't stop. Mothers don't let your guitar players grow up to be Flamenco.

Now I feel so unworthy....

[oldtimeblues]

Originally Posted by BuleriaChk

Now I feel so unworthy....

the youtube I got linked to from your youtube is a guy who has clips which just give those of us beginners an introduction to flamenco and explains it very well. Especially how low lands have darker scales and chords, and mountain regions have lighter scales and chords. And then when they go to A it becomes very festive.

The problem with being an oldtime blues man is you are constantly working backwards. We are always trying to get back home and have no interest in going somewhere new.

I have family in Mali, and when the drummer hits just a few notes, everybody in the field knows exactly what he is playing and they all start moving.

so tradition can be a two edged sword, at times it can be useful to communicate, but it can also be a wall that keeps new players out

is there anthing after flemenco? Yeah, it's called "jamming on the drone." They have been doing it in India for a thousand years. Sounds easy until you figure out all the rhythmic traditions you must adhere to. And nothing worse than listening to a jammer on the drone with no appreciation of rhythmic tradition.

[BuleriaChk]

Originally Posted by oldtimeblues

the youtube I got linked to from your youtube is a guy who has clips which just give those of us beginners an introduction to flamenco and explains it very well. Especially how low lands have darker scales and chords, and mountain regions have lighter scales and chords. And then when they go to A it becomes very festive.

The problem with being an oldtime blues man is you are constantly working backwards. We are always trying to get back home and have no interest in going somewhere new.

I have family in Mali, and when the drummer hits just a few notes, everybody in the field knows exactly what he is playing and they all start moving.

so tradition can be a two edged sword, at times it can be useful to communicate, but it can also be a wall that keeps new players out

WTF link is THAT? (Brooks?, Ron's?) That sounds ridiculous to me on the face of it, if I'm reading you correctly. (I GOTTA visit my site more often)... I never said anything like that, unless it was during that interview with Gene Forsell that Suzie and I did for the local TV station (weird story there, but I had too throw it in to be complete)... but I did my very, very best to forget it....

Let me know where you found it...

[oldtimeblues]

Originally Posted by BuleriaChk

WTF link is THAT? (Brooks?, Ron's?) That sounds ridiculous to me on the face of it, if I'm reading you correctly. (I GOTTA visit my site more often)... I never said anything like that, unless it was during that interview with Gene Forsell that Suzie and I did for the local TV station (weird story there, but I had too throw it in to be complete)... but I did my very, very best to forget it....

Let me know where you found it...

yeah man, I went to your utube link and just listened to you, and it was really nice, and over on the side they have other links. It's a guy with just a gorgeous sounding guitar, and he just strums a few chords and explains the scale and explains flemenco for those of us that have heard your music and want to learn more.

If you are beginner you can start here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnIvGDFpico I found it after listening to Chuck.

otherwise, flemenco in the hands of a very skilled technican but an unskilled musicican ends up being nothing more than scales and arpeggios over chord changes. I already did my stint as a bass player in a bebop band that played everything at 60 miles per hour. All night long, chord changes. I never want to hear another chord change as long as I live.