A Guitar Pick Primer -- Please Participate.

[StillStephen]

Originally Posted by HHP

Where do you get the Hanse picks? Only place I've seen them is Artisan Guitars and they seldom have much selection.

I got mine from Artisan. From Hense's site (www.happyturtlepick.de), US sellers:

Artisan Guitars Franklin TN phone: (615) 595 2544

Cotten Music Center Nashville TN phone: (615) 383 8937

Dusty Strings Seattle WA phone: (206) 634-1662

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

Scott,
Dunlop already has covered the "market" for guitar picks both with competitive products and upscale offerings. I know of which I speak as we did this in my company with a different product but the pricing and marketing approach was very similar...$1 for generic, $5 for upscale with value added. It worked because we were able to prove to the end user there was a significant advantage to the $5 product. This took an enormous amount of work at the street level and we were able to prove there indeed was a benefit.
Martin is trying to sell Titanium Guitar strings at $40 a pop. If you examine that market you will see that acoustic guitar strings follow the same pattern pricewise as guitar picks. We can buy decent strings in bulk as low $2-3 a pop. Then we have the $10-20 "upscale" stuff and then Titaniums.
I wonder how well Martin is doing with these strings. I know for a fact the dealer cost on these allows for a HUGE margin.
My belief is that Martin overestimated the acceptable retail price point by at least 40%. Had they come in at $25, they might have had something, but then the dealer's margins would have taken a huge hit. I don't believe the Titaniums are selling well and they are truly just a niche' product. Maybe that's what Martin envisioned all along...who knows.
Getting back to Dunlop, the real question is "why would they choose to go into the $20 pick market or even higher?" Profits? Ego?
Insofar as they haven't yet, I conclude it's been considered and tabled.

Rok, I agree with most of what you said, except the last few sentences. You are surmising and guessing about the inner workings of Dunlop, as are all of us. No one knows. But as I started earlier in this thread: they are always the company to watch in the pick business.

[djg]

Originally Posted by LadysSolo

I find it interesting that people who do not hesitate to spend several thousand dollars on a guitar balk at spending $30 for a pick to play it, especially a pick that won't wear out.

Won't wear out? Honestly, after they wander off I'd just as soon they were biodegradable.

[djg]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

. . .

The wild card in all this is probably a big company like Dunlop. They’ve got the weight, resources and muscle to be a game-changer. I expect in the next five to ten years you’ll see them grow into the upscale pick market, either through acquisition or in-house development. However, this creates a marketing problem for them. Their most expensive picks, the Primetones, run about $5.00 to $7.50 each. You cannot make a marketing step from $7.50 to $30.00 without something in between. They could make it work, but they’d really need a middle step at $19.95. So they’re the ones to watch, in my view.


https://www.stringsandbeyond.com/jopefatutogu.html

Thanks. Will sit for a bit with this.
scott

So . . . are folks actually paying 5 bucks each for primetone picks? I know that they make different shapes, sizes, thicknesses, etc., but I have a few versions (mostly the opaque brick color, but some of the amber-colored ones as well) and I think that they've been about 5 - 7 bucks per 3 pack.

[musicman1951]

Originally Posted by LadysSolo

I find it interesting that people who do not hesitate to spend several thousand dollars on a guitar balk at spending $30 for a pick to play it, especially a pick that won't wear out.

I have often had the same thought. But the pick needs to fill a need. Maybe some players don't have that need.

We all have different ears. A lot of people must actually like the sound of a cheap pick.

I usually use my fingers, but when I use a pick I have specific needs for my personal satisfaction. Tone is number one. I want to hear a big, fat sound without the click from the pick. Some people like that click.

I like to occasionally play fast single note runs. I auditioned a pile of picks using a metronome and found that the cheaper picks did not produce clear runs even close to the speed of the higher quality picks. But if you never play fast sixteenth notes why would you care?

I purchased 5 expensive picks last year. I still have all 5. I suspect that many of the players talking about losing many picks would have a different record with $30 - $40 picks. I take them out of the case, play them and put them back in the case. It's not golf (you can learn rocket science).

[N+1]

Originally Posted by musicman1951

But the pick needs to fill a need. Maybe some players don't have that need.

We all have different ears. A lot of people must actually like the sound of a cheap pick.

I periodically revisit this whole business, and having read this thread (including watching Silly Moustache's fascinating pick-bevelling video)I thought maybe the time was due for another try.

So I took out a purple Dunlop 1.14mm Tortex pick and set to work on it, bevelling and polishing the points, and testing the result on my 914ce from time to time. After a while I seemed to be getting no further audible improvement, so I compared it with an unbevelled one. There was a definite improvement, no question. The bevelling reduces the dullness and makes the treble significantly more interesting. I felt vaguely encouraged, and persisted in playing the guitar for a while, trying to persuade myself it was better than I was accustomed to. I didn't like the feel of it much, and I didn't like the sound of it much (it seemed to make my very expensive guitar sound like a cheap one), but I could tell it was definitely better in every way than the unbevelled pick.

Then I picked up my old 0.5mm red Dunlop Tortex triangle. Oh crikey it was like night and day. Suddenly my guitar sounded beautiful again, with a lovely delicate shimmer to the highs. The bass was admittedly not as loud, but much more delicate: the clunky clunks of the 1.14mm pick were replaced by something much more subtle and beguiling. And it felt so much easier to play, too.

This is what happens to me repeatedly, every time I try these experiments. I want to join the party, really I do - but trying these thick picks, bevelled or not, merely reinforces the realisation of how very much I prefer the sound and feel of the Tortex 0.5mm picks. If they stopped making them, so I was forced to use a thicker pick, I believe I would stop playing the guitar altogether.

[Charmed Life Picks]

N:

Hey, if it works for you, then there's no issue. You've found something that consistently gives you the performance and feel you enjoy. End of journey.

That's terrific,

Scott

[shekie]

I hope this isn't hijacking this informative thread but I'm hoping for some help not with pick choice, but with the mechanics of holding a pick and preventing the dreaded rotating. I've been playing for 3 1/2 years and have graduated from the thin .50mm Dunlops up to a variety of 1.0mm - 1.3mm picks from Charmed Life, Blue Chip, Dunlop Primetones, Wegens and Red Bears in an attempt to solve the problem I have with the pick rotating on me while strumming.

I've tried all the shapes, standard "Fender" type, triangles, rounded triangles, even mandolin round picks, and have also tried things like Monster Grips, picks with holes drilled in them, nothing seems to work (I've avoided pine tar type stuff like gorilla snot as I don't want to get it all over my strings).

I've watched all the videos of how to lay the pick down on the side of the index finger and then place the thumb over the pick, perpendicular to it. What I'm finding is that I can start out with the pick perpendicular to the strings, but within a minute or two of strumming, I find the point of the pick beginning to rotate toward the front of the guitar. I also find my index finger quickly repositions itself so the fleshy pad is pressing the back side of the pick in an attempt to keep it from rotating on me.

If the pick has a right-hand bevel, I'm no longer taking advantage of it as within that minute to two, I am now hitting the strings on the down stroke with the unbeveled side. Once the pick rotates, doing runs and fills which I am trying to learn to make my strumming more interesting becomes more difficult as the pick point is no longer facing the strings.

What am I doing wrong? Should I back down to a thinner pick in an attempt to learn the proper technique? Should I just declare victory and play the way I play?

[ches]

I occasionally face the pick rotation issue, too. I believe I hold the pick correctly, but I have abnormally dry skin - to the point of cracking and splitting, even in the summer. I ran through a variety of picks from traditional Fender, through Cool Picks, picks with holes in them, then to V-Picks. The Cool and V-Picks were ok most of the time, but were a definite problem in the winter.

Enter Elderly Instruments. They turned a friend and I on to Dava picks. The rubber coating in the grip area allowed me to hold the pick consistently all night long. The downside is that the attack can be a little soft due to the pick material.

Would adding some sort of rubber coating to a pick, from celluloid to the new materials, hinder the performance of the pick? I'm thinking heat shrink material or even that Flex Seal stuff. If it'll hold a boat together . . . I'd just like to get a better attack at times and not have rotation issues in the winter.

[Tenzin]

Originally Posted by djg

Won't wear out? Honestly, after they wander off I'd just as soon they were biodegradable.

I did the same thing with pens....didn't spend much on them and didn't take much stock in where they ended up.

I was offered an executive position at a large company and was given a very expensive fountain pen. I never lost it. In fact, It spurned my love of fountain pens and I've added about a 1/2 dozen (none as expensive). Knowing they were more than just a 'cheap object' I've never lost one.

[Big*Al]

Originally Posted by shekie

I hope this isn't hijacking this informative thread but I'm hoping for some help not with pick choice, but with the mechanics of holding a pick and preventing the dreaded rotating. I've been playing for 3 1/2 years and have graduated from the thin .50mm Dunlops up to a variety of 1.0mm - 1.3mm picks from Charmed Life, Blue Chip, Dunlop Primetones, Wegens and Red Bears in an attempt to solve the problem I have with the pick rotating on me while strumming.

I've tried all the shapes, standard "Fender" type, triangles, rounded triangles, even mandolin round picks, and have also tried things like Monster Grips, picks with holes drilled in them, nothing seems to work (I've avoided pine tar type stuff like gorilla snot as I don't want to get it all over my strings).

I've watched all the videos of how to lay the pick down on the side of the index finger and then place the thumb over the pick, perpendicular to it. What I'm finding is that I can start out with the pick perpendicular to the strings, but within a minute or two of strumming, I find the point of the pick beginning to rotate toward the front of the guitar. I also find my index finger quickly repositions itself so the fleshy pad is pressing the back side of the pick in an attempt to keep it from rotating on me.

If the pick has a right-hand bevel, I'm no longer taking advantage of it as within that minute to two, I am now hitting the strings on the down stroke with the unbeveled side. Once the pick rotates, doing runs and fills which I am trying to learn to make my strumming more interesting becomes more difficult as the pick point is no longer facing the strings.

What am I doing wrong? Should I back down to a thinner pick in an attempt to learn the proper technique? Should I just declare victory and play the way I play?

Of all the picks I've tried, I've found that polycarbonate (Dunlop gel, etc.) picks seem to stay put in my fingers the best and Ultem (Dunlop Ultex, etc.) aren't too bad either. Both are much better than celluloid in that regard. Acetel and Nylon materials are used for machine bearings because they have natural lubricity. It's no wonder that picks made from those materials seem extra slippery.

One thing that many overlook is how clean their picks are. Once a pick gets coated with skin oils or other gunk, it gets more slippery. I will almost always wash my hands right before playing and I will occasionally take my picks over to the kitchen sink and wash them with dish detergent. It's surprising how much this helps with pick control. (Hand washing helps with string life too.)

[Ray D]

Originally Posted by shekie

I hope this isn't hijacking this informative thread but I'm hoping for some help not with pick choice, but with the mechanics of holding a pick and preventing the dreaded rotating. I've been playing for 3 1/2 years and have graduated from the thin .50mm Dunlops up to a variety of 1.0mm - 1.3mm picks from Charmed Life, Blue Chip, Dunlop Primetones, Wegens and Red Bears in an attempt to solve the problem I have with the pick rotating on me while strumming.

I've tried all the shapes, standard "Fender" type, triangles, rounded triangles, even mandolin round picks...

I had a similar issue with pick rotation and it came down to pick shape for me. I switched to the BlueChip Kenny Smith pick and pick rotation is no longer an issue for me. I haven’t looked into whether other pick makers offer a similar sized pick.

Edit: Scott, my apologies for a response not specific to your post.

[HHP]

Originally Posted by shekie

I hope this isn't hijacking this informative thread but I'm hoping for some help not with pick choice, but with the mechanics of holding a pick and preventing the dreaded rotating. I've been playing for 3 1/2 years and have graduated from the thin .50mm Dunlops up to a variety of 1.0mm - 1.3mm picks from Charmed Life, Blue Chip, Dunlop Primetones, Wegens and Red Bears in an attempt to solve the problem I have with the pick rotating on me while strumming.

I've tried all the shapes, standard "Fender" type, triangles, rounded triangles, even mandolin round picks, and have also tried things like Monster Grips, picks with holes drilled in them, nothing seems to work (I've avoided pine tar type stuff like gorilla snot as I don't want to get it all over my strings).

I've watched all the videos of how to lay the pick down on the side of the index finger and then place the thumb over the pick, perpendicular to it. What I'm finding is that I can start out with the pick perpendicular to the strings, but within a minute or two of strumming, I find the point of the pick beginning to rotate toward the front of the guitar. I also find my index finger quickly repositions itself so the fleshy pad is pressing the back side of the pick in an attempt to keep it from rotating on me.

If the pick has a right-hand bevel, I'm no longer taking advantage of it as within that minute to two, I am now hitting the strings on the down stroke with the unbeveled side. Once the pick rotates, doing runs and fills which I am trying to learn to make my strumming more interesting becomes more difficult as the pick point is no longer facing the strings.

What am I doing wrong? Should I back down to a thinner pick in an attempt to learn the proper technique? Should I just declare victory and play the way I play?

Take a look at this and see if it helps.

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=461177

[RussL30]

I have bought several different types of Dunlop picks due to Scott’s recommendation and praise.

[LadysSolo]

Originally Posted by N+1

I periodically revisit this whole business, and having read this thread (including watching Silly Moustache's fascinating pick-bevelling video)I thought maybe the time was due for another try.

So I took out a purple Dunlop 1.14mm Tortex pick and set to work on it, bevelling and polishing the points, and testing the result on my 914ce from time to time. After a while I seemed to be getting no further audible improvement, so I compared it with an unbevelled one. There was a definite improvement, no question. The bevelling reduces the dullness and makes the treble significantly more interesting. I felt vaguely encouraged, and persisted in playing the guitar for a while, trying to persuade myself it was better than I was accustomed to. I didn't like the feel of it much, and I didn't like the sound of it much (it seemed to make my very expensive guitar sound like a cheap one), but I could tell it was definitely better in every way than the unbevelled pick.

Then I picked up my old 0.5mm red Dunlop Tortex triangle. Oh crikey it was like night and day. Suddenly my guitar sounded beautiful again, with a lovely delicate shimmer to the highs. The bass was admittedly not as loud, but much more delicate: the clunky clunks of the 1.14mm pick were replaced by something much more subtle and beguiling. And it felt so much easier to play, too.

This is what happens to me repeatedly, every time I try these experiments. I want to join the party, really I do - but trying these thick picks, bevelled or not, merely reinforces the realisation of how very much I prefer the sound and feel of the Tortex 0.5mm picks. If they stopped making them, so I was forced to use a thicker pick, I believe I would stop playing the guitar altogether.

N+1, I totally agree with you about thin picks, I don't care for anything thicker than 0.8mm, I have tried and I just don't like the feel or the sound or the way I play with them. I guess that's why they make different thicknesses!