The original CF Cargo and a K&K

mhs · #1 02-22-2015, 12:15 PM

I've got an original Cargo with the fishman setup from back when they were ~500 bucks or so. I always liked playing it, but never cared for the sound and have experimented with pickups. My favorite so far is a resonator mag pickup (very thin) that fits under the strings near the neck.

I took it on a week long trip last week and got kind of turned on to it again. I dislike the fishman pickup sound. I'm thinking that the combo of my neck PU and a K&K might do the trick for gigs.

I'd like to try a K&K, but aren't sure how to get it installed since the offset sound hole is so far from the bridge. Anyone done this?

Thanks,

By the way: I'm not new here despite my post count. I just changed my name from Papol. I decided to try to keep names online closer to my name or my initials at least.

ac · #2 02-23-2015, 03:19 AM

mhs, if you write the administrators, they can change your old papol to mhs and all you old posts will show as mhs and your history will all be intact, including your start date.

Long ago, I chose a name that was meaningless and so I later asked if they could change it to my current name and they did this with no problem.

kramster · #3 02-23-2015, 06:50 AM

I remember you...I have a K&K in one of my Cargos..never really got a good sound..might not have been installed correctly (had a guitar tech do it and he said it was difficult to get in there. I have the original pick up and a Sunrise I installed in it....so 3 pickups yes

kramster · #4 02-23-2015, 07:03 AM

mhs · #5 02-23-2015, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac

mhs, if you write the administrators, they can change your old papol to mhs and all you old posts will show as mhs and your history will all be intact, including your start date.

Long ago, I chose a name that was meaningless and so I later asked if they could change it to my current name and they did this with no problem.

Thanks: I had no idea about that. Much appreciated.

mhs · #6 02-23-2015, 08:22 AM

Hi Kramster,

Yes and I recall you as well. I think you were the guy that kept CA in business as long as they were ;).

I think I asked you about how you managed to get that big mag pickup on your Cargo before I did mine. Mine is pretty small and was easy to get on the top. That part is OK, but the Fishman shipped with it is somewhat of a disaster.

I have a "feeling" that the usual mounting spot for K&K's perhaps changes with a guitar with an offset sound hole, but this is completely based on absolutely .. nothing. I might just get some tape and start experimenting with mounting spots. My cargo is such a mess at this point that I could cut an access hole in the back and just experiment. I'd like a sliding access door in the back part. I was never too impressed with the acoustic sound anyway.

Cheers.

kramster · #7 02-23-2015, 08:53 AM

I thought of a hole in the back as well....but on another experimental guitar...Alistair did it on one of his Emeralds at least once

Earl49 · #8 02-23-2015, 09:45 AM

Interesting concept - like a bass port in a speaker cabinet. I recall seeing Leo Kottke back in the late 80's performing at a small venue. He had duct tape all over the back of his guitar and from the stage told the story: "I accidentally stepped on this moving around on a dark stage one night recently. I've thought about getting it repaired when I get back home, but the sound is noticeably better now. Looks ugly, sounds nice. Maybe the duct tape will stay".

mhs · #9 02-23-2015, 01:56 PM

I think the back-door idea might have some merit on a CF guitar (well, for some of us oddballs anyway). At least I could install what I wanted, have room to do it, and then find out whether it was just the way CF is, or an offset soundhole, that effects how different everything seems to sound on this guitar.

I really like playing my cargo, but the sound has always driven me a bit nuts. If there was some really good way to amplify it, I'd gig more often with it. The best I've got so far is with the mag resonator pickup that fits under the strings, but even that is somehow .. not biased correctly? It doesn't sound anything like the way you'd expect it to. I have plenty of CF recordings on YouTube (they're old) with the Fishman pickup or a Mic and they're all fair to poor sounding, but I'm going to keep trying to fix it (now and then).

Yeah: Time to carve a sliding back door into the thing.

Kramster: Got any recordings up with that mag pickup on your Cargo?

ac: Thanks again: I wrote Glennwillow who passed my note on to an admin who switched my account name to mhs. Much appreciated.

tbeltrans · #10 02-23-2015, 04:34 PM

My three Cargos from back when they were inexpensive are still in my possession. All three have only the K & K pickups installed. I did not do the install, but Marty Reynolds did this while he had his shop at The Podium in Minneapolis before they moved and joined with Guitar Rodeo.

It was not easy to get a good sound from the K & Ks. The mid-range was overpowering such that it was extremely difficult to tame. My solution, which I still use today quite successfully, is to run the guitar directly into a Boss GE-7 graphic eq and then the output from that into an EHX Knockout pedal. I modded both pedals. The Knockout has a mod to cure the hum, and the GE-7 has the usual op-amp upgrades to quiet it down and I also modded the center freqs of some of the eq bands to better match my Cargos. I have used this combination for several years now, so it is time tested.

Though it seems controversial here for some reason, the manufacturer suggests that the K & K pickups work best into a 1 meg ohm load. My own experimentation bore this out, which is why I elected to run my guitar into the Boss GE-7 first, as well as why I chose that particular eq pedal. It presents that impedance even with the changes in the gain structure with the upgraded op-amps.

I wrote about this extensively at the MacNichol site forum. After being accused here of being one of MacNichol's people who come over here to cause trouble, I contacted MacNichol and asked to have my membership terminated so as not to get him involved in the stupidity that was going on here in this forum for a short while at the time. So I don't know if those posts are still accessible or not. Unfortunately, I don't recall all the details of the mods I made, but I do recall that I documented them in detail in that forum.

There was another guy as I recall, who later determined that using only two of the three pickups in the K & K system eliminated the need for all the eq I was using. That may be an approach worth looking into. Again, if these older posts are still archived there, you may want to look for that one too.

As far as I know we two were the primary people who tackled the K & K successfully at the time, but I could well be wrong about that. It would be worth your while to dig into this a bit before making your final decision on how to amplify the Cargo.

Tony

mhs · #11 02-23-2015, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

My three Cargos from back when they were inexpensive are still in my possession. All three have only the K & K pickups installed. I did not do the install, but Marty Reynolds did this while he had his shop at The Podium in Minneapolis before they moved and joined with Guitar Rodeo.

It was not easy to get a good sound from the K & Ks. The mid-range was overpowering such that it was extremely difficult to tame. My solution, which I still use today quite successfully, is to run the guitar directly into a Boss GE-7 graphic eq and then the output from that into an EHX Knockout pedal. I modded both pedals. The Knockout has a mod to cure the hum, and the GE-7 has the usual op-amp upgrades to quiet it down and I also modded the center freqs of some of the eq bands to better match my Cargos. I have used this combination for several years now, so it is time tested.

Though it seems controversial here for some reason, the manufacturer suggests that the K & K pickups work best into a 1 meg ohm load. My own experimentation bore this out, which is why I elected to run my guitar into the Boss GE-7 first, as well as why I chose that particular eq pedal. It presents that impedance even with the changes in the gain structure with the upgraded op-amps.

I wrote about this extensively at the MacNichol site forum. After being accused here of being one of MacNichol's people who come over here to cause trouble, I contacted MacNichol and asked to have my membership terminated so as not to get him involved in the stupidity that was going on here in this forum for a short while at the time. So I don't know if those posts are still accessible or not. Unfortunately, I don't recall all the details of the mods I made, but I do recall that I documented them in detail in that forum.

There was another guy as I recall, who later determined that using only two of the three pickups in the K & K system eliminated the need for all the eq I was using. That may be an approach worth looking into. Again, if these older posts are still archived there, you may want to look for that one too.

As far as I know we two were the primary people who tackled the K & K successfully at the time, but I could well be wrong about that. It would be worth your while to dig into this a bit before making your final decision on how to amplify the Cargo.

Tony

That's really interesting information. Thanks for posting and I vaguely recall you mentioning some of this long ago when we were all trying different ways to get this thing to amplify correctly.

Isn't there also a 2-pickup version (rather than 3) "like" the K&K that is made by the other inside-the-body company (forgot their name)? I think it was meant for archtops because archtops are hard to work with under the bridge. Anyway, I'll look around for your original posts.

edit: I often use the not-so-usual combo of PB strings on archtops and steel strings on flattops and I think it slipped my mind when I put this Cargo pickup (mag) in. I just switched to steel strings and it sounds much better, or at least, the strings are all even in output now. I'll make a recording soon and see what it really sounds like. The combo of the mag pickup + the built in undersaddle isn't so bad.

I didn't explain that steel string thing very well: I don't have individual pole pieces on my mag pickup, so if you are using PB strings (or bronze), then the top two strings will be way out of balance since they're pure steel while the others are wrapped with PB. If you want to get rid of that effect, the only way without pole pieces is to switch to steel or nickle strings.

kramster · #12 02-23-2015, 10:12 PM

I was always watchin' what tbeltrans was up to then and bought some of the same things he did to try....

I have not recorded my souped up Cargonian ... might have to have at it...Hmmm which amp, preamp...???

mhs · #13 02-25-2015, 09:33 PM

Any tried this version of the K&K with only two transducers?

http://www.bluestarmusic.com/KK-Soun...ack_p_776.html

I was hoping to eliminate some of the mid-range by using two rather than three. If it doesn't work out, I've got an archtop I'd like to try it on anyway.

tbeltrans · #14 03-08-2015, 02:13 PM

There is yet another very nce solution for the Cargo and the K & K...

The Empress Para EQ pedal. This pedal has a 3 band parametric EQ, though for those who would argue it isn't fully parametric, it does have a 3 position switch for each ban for Q settings, rather than another potentiometer for each as a full parametric would have. This pedal also has a clean boost switch and gain control.

What makes it especially nice for the K & K pickups is that this pedal has the 1 Meg Ohm input impedance. The pedal is small, considering what it does (fits easily in the hand), and runs only on AC, using the standard Boss type 9v negative center power supply that you can get at most any store that sells pedals. This pedal only draws 85 ma, so it is fine with the standard Boss type power supply that most of these pedals use.

This pedal gives you very nice sonic sculpting of the K & K pickups to tame them in a very clean package.

Tony