What is Bhilwara Rosewood?

[J185-4Me]

Bhilwara rosewood back:



Ren Ferguson playing the Bhilwara Songwriter Deluxe:



Fred

[Wade Hampton]

Very cool, Fred. When were these photos taken? Was that a prototype Ren was playing, or is there a Bhilwara rosewood Songwriter in production?


whm

[Wade Hampton]

I heard back from Fred privately. Those photos were taken in 2009, when Ren Ferguson still worked for Gibson. Obviously Gibson has been aware of this wood and using it at least in prototypes since then.

This morning I also talked to a couple of people who are very knowledgeable about tonewoods. I haven't heard back yet from Don at Gibson, which doesn't surprise me, since I know that he has some people visiting the plant that he has to interact with. Chasing this wood information down for us necessarily has to take a back seat to that.

Having shared Fred's picture of the Bhilwara rosewood Gibson Songwriter prototype with these folks I spoke with this morning, the consensus is that the wood in question is Albizia odoratissima, common name "black siris."

Gibson "Bhilwara rosewood" prototype

The Martin Guitar Company has also built guitars out of this wood but calls it siris:

Martin DCPA4 Siris

AGF regular Misty44 posted about this wood in this thread from a couple of years ago:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=262722


Earlier in this thread Bohemian speculated that the wood Gibson is using is Indian laurel, Ficus microcarpa. Indian laurel has been used for guitar-making, as this picture of a wood set from lonewolfguitars.com shows:

Indian laurel

Bohemian, I feel I owe you an apology for being dismissive of your point of view. At this point I'm leaning more towards black siris as the likeliest suspect, but I was taking a hurried conversation with a Gibson product specialist as having more weight than your considered opinion. So for that I apologize.

Before anyone decides to lambast Don at Gibson for not having the complete botanical information about this wood at his fingertips, bear in mind that he doesn't work in that part of the operation. He told me he would have to ask their wood purchaser. That's the person whose job it is to deal with those details.

What's more, all we have at this point are some educated guesses from a couple of very knowledgeable guys. But all either of them had to work with were the same two photos I've included in this post - neither of them have had a chance to hold, weigh, tap and smell the actual wood that Gibson is using.

My hunch is that their speculation that the wood in question is Albizia odoratissima, common name black siris, is correct.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Jim.S]

Nice Wade, that Albizia is a new one on me. Those two finished guitar pics you posted would make it a interesting guess too. The top one could pass as Burmese rosewood (Dalbergia oliveri) and the one under it could pass for PNG rosewood which in another life is also know as Burmese rosewood (Pterocarpus indicus). Another thing about the wood trade is that if the supplier has something the customer wants that isn't really what the customer wants but still looks a hell of a lot like it then there is a good chance he will move his stock regardless.

In those two pics the grain (pores) in the bottom one looks much bigger than the top one but that could just be light or grainfiller choice, even very experienced woodworkers at times can't work it out.

Looking forward to Don getting a bit of a break at work.

Jim

[bohemian]

Wade,

No apology necessary nor expected.

The sample shown of east Indian Laurel is anything like my five sets..

My 5 are so close to the B rosewood as to been typical.

I do not trust (most) makers, retailers, distributors, hustlers.. marketeers.
They are self serving at the expense of the customer.

One HUGE joke is that for the last 20 years the Spanish have been using spruciana as brazilian and when the big bust came, not even the federales knew which was what.

Many unsuspecting buyers of brazlian and RIO and any number of other names for erzats rosewood do not know their guitars are not Brazilian.

M A R K E T I N G

Thanks Wade..

In spite of our many differences.. we have more in common than not..
Carry on..


Think
C A V I U N A

coming to you in the near future.



PS Post #33 first photo is dead ringer for East Indian Laurel

[Wade Hampton]

Okay, I heard back from Don Ruffato at Gibson, and it's official: the wood Gibson is marketing as "Bhiwara rosewood" is Albizia odoratissima, common name black siris.

Here's a link that Don included in his email to me:

http://www.worldagroforestry.org/tre...oratissima.pdf


It's nice to have confirmation on what the tonewood specialists were telling me yesterday.


Wade Hampton Miller

[ewh2]

http://www.acousticguitar.com/Gear/R...4-Siris-Review

I think that particular Martin which uses Siris/Bhilwara RW sounds very nice. A little woodier sounding that EIR.

[Wade Hampton]

Well, Fred "J185-4ME" told me that he was very impressed by the sound of the prototype in the pictures he posted, and if Gibson sold its prototypes he would have bought it then and there.

Anyway, it's an interesting wood, and I look forward to getting my hands on a few guitars made from it.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Jim.S]

Thanks again Wade, it just goes to show when it comes to common or trade names you can call it anything you want, there are no rules. So you can take a piece of Albizia Spp. with one common name of black siris and if you don't think the name is good for marketing you can then re-name it some sort of rosewood. Way to go Gibson.

Jim

[bohemian]

Gibson.. Rosewood.. Marketing.
Misinformation, misleading... Marketing at its best.

Still looks like East Indian Laurel.

[frankmcr]

First of all Thanks! to WHM for some great investigative work!



By the way, albizia odoratissima is already commonly known in English as "Ceylon rosewood". Why they didn't just stick with that name?

[bohemian]

Why not considering "bolivian rosewood" hangs on in spite of not being a rosewood.

[Jim.S]

Originally Posted by Jim.S

Way to go Gibson.

Maybe my dig at Gibson was a little unnecessary, for all I know it could have been sold to Gibson as Bhilwarra rosewood by the mill or the middle man.

Jim

[zmf]

I'm am continually impressed by the knowledge base of this forum.

Now if I get to play a Bhilwara rosewood AJ in the next couple of days, I'll have a clue about what's going on.

Thanks.

[Jim]

Kudos and thanks to Wade for tracking down what this wood is. I am sure it must be a great sounding tonewood otherwise Gibson would not be using it, though like many others I am disappointed (to put it politely) that Gibson feels a need to call it rosewood and have their customers believe these guitars are made with rosewood when they are not. My hope would have been for Gibson to proudly announce their adding a new tonewood to their lineup - called Siris - which I think is a cool sounding name and which they could market as being highly desirable. They could also highlight how this wood is sustainably cut and managed and how Gibson is taking a lead on the use of sustainable wood use to counter all of the bad press they went through not that long ago on their Lacy problems.