this is an incredibly hard instrument

[oldhippiegal]

I've fiddled the past week with hybrid picking, a la Richard Thompson, and with applying the good advice I got here about muting open strings on the way to doing other things, and working scales both legato and staccato, and I am reminded how incredibly difficult an instrument this is. (Though I didn't need the reminder It's obvious every single day).

You know, some days, I'm nostalgic for the piano. You're sitting there on the piano, you play a note--you can play it soft or loud or medium, but that's pretty much the whole set of options. You play the F key a centimeter to the left or right, no big deal; as long as you don't get the G too, it's an F. You break a nail, no big deal. You lift your finger off a piano key slow or fast, no change in tone. In comparison, the guitar is like some...princess and the pea of an instrument, so super-sensitive to every little difference, if she were a person, you'd wonder if she were worth the trouble.

I know you can just grab a pick and play the same six open chords in the same pattern over and over, claim to be playing guitar, and have years of fun at it...but if you want to be any good or play interesting music, it's a heck of a challenging instrument.

I'm done venting now.

[M19]

Oh, she's worth the trouble, all right!

[Losov]

Originally Posted by oldhippiegal

I know you can just grab a pick and play the same six open chords in the same pattern over and over, claim to be playing guitar, and have years of fun at it...but if you want to be any good or play interesting music, it's a heck of a challenging instrument.

Some people never come to that realization.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by oldhippiegal

I've fiddled the past week with hybrid picking, a la Richard Thompson, and with applying the good advice I got here about muting open strings on the way to doing other things, and working scales both legato and staccato, and I am reminded how incredibly difficult an instrument this is. (Though I didn't need the reminder It's obvious every single day).

You know, some days, I'm nostalgic for the piano. You're sitting there on the piano, you play a note--you can play it soft or loud or medium, but that's pretty much the whole set of options. You play the F key a centimeter to the left or right, no big deal; as long as you don't get the G too, it's an F. You break a nail, no big deal. You lift your finger off a piano key slow or fast, no change in tone. In comparison, the guitar is like some...princess and the pea of an instrument, so super-sensitive to every little difference, if she were a person, you'd wonder if she were worth the trouble.

I know you can just grab a pick and play the same six open chords in the same pattern over and over, claim to be playing guitar, and have years of fun at it...but if you want to be any good or play interesting music, it's a heck of a challenging instrument.

I'm done venting now.

oldhippiegal:

After reading your post the other day and thinking about it, I am finding your observations quite interesting. Though I don't have the piano background you have indicated having in earlier posts in these forums, I do play aorund with keyboards, being self-taught. I find that when I get frustrated with guitar, the keyboard is a nice respite. It DOES seem easier to play "real" songs as instrumentals on it in my own experience. The concepts just lay "nicer" on the keyboard. Of course, the fretboard can provide some very unique solutions to "musical problems" when harmonizing a melody, so there are tradeoffs.

A very important point you bring out is that one can just strum the same chords over and over and lay claim to "playing" guitar, but to really get something worthwhile out of the instrument does take a lot of effort. I find many more people I encounter who cna sit at the piano and really play a recognizeable tune than what is typically done on the guitar. I also think it is much more difficult to get really good sounding arrangements out of the guitar, though clearly it can be done by those who really develop that skill.

To me, there is also a real skill in making the seemingly simple sound good on the guitar. Much of what I hear in "modern fingerstyle" sounds overly busy to me and I quickly tire of it. Making the playing uncluttered yet still compelling to the ear seems an almost elusive skill. On the piano, there is quit e arange in 88 keys with both hands playing notes. Contrast that to the guitar where (except for the tapping stuff, which really doesn't appeal to me after the first minute or two) the two hands work together to produce a note, we simply don't have that range and structure available to us. Being able to leverage the guitar's strengths is a lifetime of exploration, and the result can be quite worthwhile.

I realize that what I am talking about here, solo fingerstyle instrumental solos of well known tunes is not what you are talking about as the OP in this thread, but the observations I have in that pursuit seem to be similar to your observations in your own pursuits because the common ground is the guitar. Also common across musical paths on the guitar is the realization that, in the long run, the pursuit IS well worth the effort.

Intersting observations and good thread...

Tony

[BigD]

This is why I love the guitar: it is polyphonic and you physical create the notes allowing for complex voicings and three different positions for each note. Just getting around the physical aspects of it is enough.

I have been playing for many years, but unlike many guitarist-egos, I am very shy about my abilities. Only a small part of that time was really progressing as a musician or learning new skills.

It was only recently that I was able to fret pinky stretches on the low E while holding down other notes on the D or G string. It is simple little shapes like this that make you realise how fragile your abilities can be. The more you learn the more you realise you don't know. Classical musicians at least have a framework on which to build their knowledge. Self-taught fingerpickers have islands of knowledge that they try and blend into a technique...

I bought an electric piano, thinking this will be a whole lot easier to sound gooood.....it probably is but sits gathering dust in the corner of my front room. I have been unable to free myself of the portable rich wood stringed instrument from which I create rather than simply trigger the sounds.

The cliche "I play a bit..." may sound disingenuous, and is probably used more by those that appreciate the difficulties and complexities of the instrument. It is sometimes disheartening to acknowledge the limits of your abilities, and I know several guitarists (including a professional standard classical player) whoc gave up completely because they thought they would never be as good as they wanted to be. A real shame. Yeah, guitar is difficult but everything that is most rewarding is difficult which is what makes it worthwhile...

BigD

[ronmac]

Malcolm Gladwell, in his book Outliers, posited that it takes 10,000 hours of training and practice to master a skill.

So, sit back and get to it....

[oldhippiegal]

Thanks for continuing the discussion--you have interesting responses.

BigD, I'm so going to steal your "islands of knowledge" metaphor. That's exactly what self-teaching fingerstyle is for me, landing on them, exploring, and trying then to organize them into some meaningful nation of skill. (And from time to time being temporarily defeated by one island's mountain so that I decide to go off to another for a time and see what's up there.)

ronmac, bizarrely enough, someone else just quoted that 10000 hour thing to me 12 hours ago. So I have in guitar work about an hour a day for six months, 90 minutes a day for another six months, 2 hours a day for another 12 months, so that's 1642 hours so far. I have a number of years to go before I have a chance at mastering it. Right now, the "intermediate" level feels like a vast continent (to stick with geographic metaphors) I'll be hiking across for years more, so that 10000 number may be how long it'll take for me to get to the next place. Thankfully, I like the view here in Intermediateland, so the hike is pleasant. Maddening at moments, but mostly great fun.

Tony, since I'm arranging my own standards now (and it continues to go terribly slowly, still feeling as awkward as if I'm trying to write cursive with my non-dominant hand), I grokked your simplicity vs. clutter discussion. The only criteria I have so far to decide is my ear--can this moment support more or fewer notes and embellishments? As a new arranger, I'm probably overfilling space, trying to fit in every single technique I know along the way in every song, and I bet the longer I do it, the more I'll trust the melody and opt for simplicity. And the more simple the arrangement, the more it seems those little choices of physically what to do with the fingers, when and how are even more crucial to the execution. If I'm playing five notes at once, there aren't as many options (at least not at this level of skill!). As in the discussion I had with someone here about "Windy and Warm," some professional spent literally years deciding what to do with the measure with the bend in it, and I really got that, too. That bend alone could satisfy a Zen guitarist for a lifetime.

[tbeltrans]

That 10,000 idea has been discussed, argued, and examined in a number of forums involving anything that takes skill. While I think that being concerned with progress to some degree and to whatever one considers an "ultimate" level of skill to shoot for can be motivating to a degree, I personally much prefer to subscribe to the idea of the "goalless" pursuit that George Leonard talks about in "Mastery". The enjoyment comes from the journey, taking it day by day. When we do that, all the concern about "talent" and whether we are "good enough" or "capable" and all that stuff that tends to make the journey more of a contest against ourselves and whomever we set up in our minds that is our "competitor" (whether it is a person we consider our musical peer or a "pro" such as Tommy Emmanuel or whomever). I personally would find it difficult to enjoy playing guitar under those circumstances, but then others might really enjoy that air of competition.

As for arranging, I am probably a "heretic" when I say that I find people such as Tommy Emmanual and Laurence Juber and people at that level who have the "chops" and use it well, to be a bit too "busy" for me. It is a matter of musical taste and I would never denigrate those who have achieved that level of mastery. But it often seems to me that part of the attraction of some of these players to the rest of us is that "busyness", much as one might pay attention to a violinist who plays very fast flurries of notes as compared to somebody who plays much more simply. That seems to almost be a part of human nature. David Sudnow talked about that extensively in his early versions of his self-teaching piano course, talking about how "pyrotechnics" has historically often attracted more listeners than somebody less "exciting". It often seems (at least for me) that I become more aware of certain things when I hear or read somebody else calling them to our attention, and this was certainly a case in point.

One player whom I really listening to again and again, playing her own compositions, is Clarelynn Rose. I have let people listen to her CDs and some find it boring. To me, her music is calming, soothing, and decidedly uncluttered. Also, she makes excellent use of open tunings and sticks with a good strong melody, rather than just textural stuff. As for a classical setting of arrangements of standards and pop tunes, I really am finidng the arrangements of Howard Heitmeyer to be very enjoyable and worth studying, if you can find them. Also, Larry Beekman's "Beatles For Classical Guitar" is worth a look. Rick Ruskin has an excellent DVD for fingerstyle guitar, and a number of downloadable videos continuing the series.

I continue to go back to the basics, experimenting with a bassline against a melody as the basis for my own fingerstyle explorations. Tht keeps things decidedly simple while I experiment with various keys to place the melody in various areas on the fretboard and each key provides different ways to leverage the fretboard through the use of open strings and that sort of thing. That is one way to get away from "canned" chord forms and might ultimately make one's arranging process "portable" across various tunings (though I have yet to pursue that).

Tony

[gitardude]

I find I'm just enjoying the journey. Having started in my mid-sixties without benefit of decent hand-eye coordination, with short stubby fingers, and no particular talent beyond an ability to carry a tune while singing, I'm finding that just working on pieces that stretch my abilities is really enjoyable, even if I never do get to play them at a reasonable tempo, and even if the instrument does make some funny other-than-musical sounds.

[golfer]

Tony and all:
The guitar is easy and difficult if you ask me. It allows the use of some simple notes and chords to creat music that we can enjoy. At the same time as we push our limits and that of the instrument it becomes as complex as we want to make it, while at the same time putting out souething of gret enjoyment and beauty. You can't go wrong with this instrument.
Tony, I agree with you that a lot of "music" today has become as much showmanship as music, yet at the same time shows the potential complexity of the instrument. While I enjoy sometimes hearing the showmanship, I am often amazed at how it is the simple tune that often gets the "grammy" if you will. The ones where you say to your self, "I think I could play that, isn't it beautiful".

[jseth]

Yup! It's pretty much a "one size fits all" instrument... meaning, you can go as deep as you want, only to discover there's MORE to go! And, conversely, you can strum a few chords, have fun and sing songs, all to your heart's content... and EVERYWHERE IN BETWEEN!

IMHO, it's judgemental and rude to say that anyone's choice of "how they play the guitar" is not the "right" way to go about things... Throughout my life, it has always been very easy for me to criticize and judge people, and foist my opinions on them. I'm doing a good job, of late, of just allowing people to be how they are and accepting them...

Being a singer/songwriter/guitarist for most of my life, I reached a point with the guitar that I'm comfortable - playing, writing and accompanying myself or others. I know I could work more with a metronome, increasing my chord vocabulary and learning new picking techniques - and I do these things, but not to the exclusion of writing and performing... or living my life. Allowing for day to day differences in feel, I'm good with how I play and what I know...

...which is nice...

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by jseth

Yup! It's pretty much a "one size fits all" instrument... meaning, you can go as deep as you want, only to discover there's MORE to go! And, conversely, you can strum a few chords, have fun and sing songs, all to your heart's content... and EVERYWHERE IN BETWEEN!

IMHO, it's judgemental and rude to say that anyone's choice of "how they play the guitar" is not the "right" way to go about things... Throughout my life, it has always been very easy for me to criticize and judge people, and foist my opinions on them. I'm doing a good job, of late, of just allowing people to be how they are and accepting them...

Being a singer/songwriter/guitarist for most of my life, I reached a point with the guitar that I'm comfortable - playing, writing and accompanying myself or others. I know I could work more with a metronome, increasing my chord vocabulary and learning new picking techniques - and I do these things, but not to the exclusion of writing and performing... or living my life. Allowing for day to day differences in feel, I'm good with how I play and what I know...

...which is nice...

I don't see in this thread where anybody has said "anyone's choice of "how they play the guitar" is not the "right" way to go about things". I do see where people have expressed their own approach to playing. Maybe this comment was made in general, rather than toward any comments in this thread, but I find that discussions in this thread and elsewhere on these forums to be quite civil. There are many people here with many approaches to the guitar, and discussions such as this are where we read about these approaches. We as readers of these discussions can take what we need and leave the rest. With that approach, it seems to me we all benefit from exposure to each other's ideas.

As for this part...

Being a singer/songwriter/guitarist for most of my life, I reached a point with the guitar that I'm comfortable - playing, writing and accompanying myself or others. I know I could work more with a metronome, increasing my chord vocabulary and learning new picking techniques - and I do these things, but not to the exclusion of writing and performing... or living my life. Allowing for day to day differences in feel, I'm good with how I play and what I know...

...well said. Thanks for posting it.

Tony

[mr. beaumont]

I think jseth makes some very valid points. My take has always been that one should be proficient enough on the instrument to do what they want/need to do.

But I also find the quest for "more" very appealing--almost comforting. "More" in the terms of knowledge, more technique, more tricks, whatever...I've been playinf for 20 years...I think about where I'll be in another 20 as long as I keep learning and it's very exciting.

The comforting part simply comes in when I think about the fact that I could have another 20, 40, 60, 100 years--and never know it all...I never have to be bored again for the rest of my life!

I have to remind myself sometimes that this isn't everyone's take on the guitar, and that's cool.

[tbeltrans]

There is an undercurrent in some posts in this thread that seem to indicate that something posted here was improper. I still don't get it.

I made some comments on the 10,000 hour theory only because I have seen numerous threads on other forums discussing this. I have seen it on both guitar and piano forums. Also, I have taught guitar on and off over the years, as have many in these forums. Especially among adults, the idea of whether the student has "talent" seems to be an issue at some point - usually at a point when the student hits a plateau and wonders if s/he will ever make progress. David Sudnow addressed this very well in early incarnations of his piano course. After having taught thousands of students, he concluded that anybody who WANTS to learn to play - can and that the sooner we put those ideas about "talent" out of our heads and just enjoy the ride, the better off we will be in our chosen pursuit. I don't know if that has drawn some fire here, but my intention was to simply provide another possible way of looking at that particular issue. I have seen people give up playing altogether because they could not get past that issue. To me, that is a terrible shame. Granted, there are people who decide that music just isn't a priority for them and that is fine too. But for those who really did want to learn to play, such focus on talent can be devastating. We can all learn to play guitar regardless of how many hours we put in. How we each define what "play guitar" means is a highly individual thing, but we can all do it, whatever we each define that to be. I think that is an important message to anyone struggling with the "talent" issue.

Anyway, I have been reading Mr. Beaumont's posts for some time and find them to often be quite illuminating and I have benefited from the information you provide in them.

I also appreciate the idea that the guitar is an endless road and there will never be an end to the potential for learning something new.

Tony

[rick-slo]

Every instrument is hard to play if taken to a level of virtuosity. The guitar can be quite easy or quite difficult depending on what you are trying to do on it.