Tonedexter on six different guitars / pickups

guitarman68 · #1 03-31-2020, 04:03 AM

Hi,

this is part 1 of my "Home Quarantine Tonedexter series" (more to follow).
I worked on individual wave maps on six different guitars with six different pickups (Ultra Tonic, Dazzo, Schatten, K&K, Sunrise, Takamine). I know that some wave maps sound better than others, but I think you'll get the idea.

https://youtu.be/gilfNHa4JWo

shufflebeat · #2 03-31-2020, 08:36 AM

Time well spent.

ljguitar · #3 03-31-2020, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guitarman68

… individual wave maps on six different guitars with six different pickups (Ultra Tonic, Dazzo, Schatten, K&K, Sunrise, Takamine). I know that some wave maps sound better than others, but I think you'll get the idea.

Hi Robert

Good job! It's a good comparison video.

SpruceTop · #4 03-31-2020, 08:54 AM

Thanks, Robert! Everything sounds good regardless of what guitar and mode you're using. I really like the tone of the Sunrise-only/Martin D-18 combination, and it's the easiest to deal with as there is no additional processing in the signal path from pickup to loudspeaker. I've never owned or used a Sunrise but from your demo I can hear why players like Richard Thompson would use it, especially in conjunction with a microphone.

tadol · #5 03-31-2020, 10:20 AM

Very nice, and thank you for taking the effort - can you give a little more info on what mic and placement you used to train the ToneDexter? A couple of those don’t sound like I would expect -

Petty1818 · #6 03-31-2020, 10:41 AM

Great work, thanks! I used to record a lot but find I have no motivation to do it now so I realize how much time and effort this can take! I can't believe how many instruments you own, I would be broke lol.

In terms of the pickups, the two that really sounded the best to me bypassed were the Ultra Tonic and the Sunrise (I am not a magnetic pickup fan so that was surprising). The Ultra Tonic just had the fullest sound with some excellent clarity. Is that V2 or V3? I feel like it has to be V2 as V3 is still fairly new. Regardless, I am really considering it now.

The Dazzo and especially the HFN seemed to be a bit thin by comparison. The Dazzo sounded a bit more even but the HFN was definitely lacking something.

I also watched your Part 3 video. I too play mandolin and bouzouki. My mandolin has a K&K pickup as well and although the tonedexter makes it sounds even more natural, the K&K alone is awesome live. I use a Headway on my bouzouki and it sounds huge but on my octave mandolin I might try the new Schatten BM-1 Neo.

guitarman68 · #7 03-31-2020, 11:54 AM

Hey,
thank you all for watching and commenting - highly appreciated !

@SpruceTop:
I didn't use the Sunrise for a long time and included it here only to offer some different PUs. But I like it very much here, too.

@Tadol
When training the TD I tried four different mic positions with the same mic (Schoeps MK4). After training I played through each wavemap and recorded it to my DAW. I compared it to the mic signal and chose the best sounding.
Mic positions I tried:
1. mic angled down to the neck/body joint
2. mic pointing straight to the neck/body joint
3. mic in front of the sound hole
4. mic close to my right shoulder angled down to the sound hole

On each guitar position 1 sounded best to my ear. Listening back now I don't like the sound of the O17.

@Petty1818
The Ultra Tonic in my guitar is the V2 version. Heard about the V3 design these days, and it looks great. Wow, what a genius James May is !
Let me hear what your bouzouki sound like with the new pickup. I'm happy with the K&K in my bouzouki but it took me some effort: In the first place it sounded way to boomy (my 10-string has a pair low D-strings) due to the super responsiveness of my instrument. So I glued the K&K discs to three thin shims of wood and then installed it.

jricc · #8 03-31-2020, 01:01 PM

Great demo! Thank you! I thought the OM-18 with the mic and then with the Tonedexter were pretty darn close.

Petty1818 · #9 03-31-2020, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guitarman68

@Petty1818
The Ultra Tonic in my guitar is the V2 version. Heard about the V3 design these days, and it looks great. Wow, what a genius James May is !
Let me hear what your bouzouki sound like with the new pickup. I'm happy with the K&K in my bouzouki but it took me some effort: In the first place it sounded way to boomy (my 10-string has a pair low D-strings) due to the super responsiveness of my instrument. So I glued the K&K discs to three thin shims of wood and then installed it.

That's my issue. I like the sound of the K&K but installing it in a bouzouki or octave mandolin would be a challenge with such a small hole. I actually do have the original Schatten BM-1 so I will test it on my bouzouki tonight. It's the same as the new one but the older model has a fairly odd endpin jack installation (basically attaches to the side of the tail piece). It just never felt all that secure.

My issue with the Ultra Tonic or K&K in general for my guitar is that I know it's probably the way to go. I have tried other SBT's and have had issues with all of them and the K&K/UT is just so consistent. I just hate the super glue method. I know they can be removed and I am overthinking it but it's still a concern. I wish there was a way for K&K as a company to find a way to use the PUTW or B-Band approach where the adhesive is already on the pickup and when you get it, you simply peel away the protective paper and push it into place. That would provide direct contact to the sound board but be less permanent.

James May · #10 03-31-2020, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petty1818

...

My issue with the Ultra Tonic or K&K in general for my guitar is that I know it's probably the way to go. I have tried other SBT's and have had issues with all of them and the K&K/UT is just so consistent. I just hate the super glue method. I know they can be removed and I am overthinking it but it's still a concern. I wish there was a way for K&K as a company to find a way to use the PUTW or B-Band approach where the adhesive is already on the pickup and when you get it, you simply peel away the protective paper and push it into place. That would provide direct contact to the sound board but be less permanent.

The Ultra Tonic CAN be installed with 3M double stick tape (or carpet tape from your hardware store). 0.003" thickness. There will be a slight loss of bass response relative to super glue, but in the overall scheme of things it may not matter much. Long term reliability of using double stick tape is a bit of an unknown to me, but the worst that can happen is that it come loose I suppose. The glue itself will come off easily with solvent.

Marshall · #11 03-31-2020, 03:34 PM

Oh, I loved that video. Thanks so much. I'm a strummer, so I prefer your little passage to others I hear. Mostly because strumming usually brings out the nasties in any pickup more than fingerstyle playing.

Interestingly enough, I like the ToneDexter sound in each case BETTER than the microphone by itself. There's a liveliness without the harshness of a pickup.

I also like you tried the mag pickup. James May doesn't recommend mag pickups with ToneDexter. But I've found it improves the sound enough to be worthwhile. Sure, a mag with TD won't sound exactly like the acoustic guitar, but it's a distinct improvement over the pickup by itself.

PS - have you tried making wavemaps with a different microphone? I find there's a difference there. The wavemap takes on some of the characteristics of the mic. Yeas, a Schoeps is a mighty fine microphone. I've made wavemaps with a Neumann K184 and a Shure KSM32, and I find the two wavemaps for each guitar have a slightly different color to them. It's interesting.

aaron_t · #12 04-01-2020, 06:06 AM

I did try carpet tape on the initial install of one of my Ultra Tonics. I’m not sure I was able to discern a difference sound-wise, but the transducers did start falling off after around 6 months. Sample group of 1, of course. YMMV.

guitarman68 · #13 04-01-2020, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall

Oh, I loved that video. Thanks so much. I'm a strummer, so I prefer your little passage to others I hear. Mostly because strumming usually brings out the nasties in any pickup more than fingerstyle playing.

Interestingly enough, I like the ToneDexter sound in each case BETTER than the microphone by itself. There's a liveliness without the harshness of a pickup.

I also like you tried the mag pickup. James May doesn't recommend mag pickups with ToneDexter. But I've found it improves the sound enough to be worthwhile. Sure, a mag with TD won't sound exactly like the acoustic guitar, but it's a distinct improvement over the pickup by itself.

PS - have you tried making wavemaps with a different microphone? I find there's a difference there. The wavemap takes on some of the characteristics of the mic. Yeas, a Schoeps is a mighty fine microphone. I've made wavemaps with a Neumann K184 and a Shure KSM32, and I find the two wavemaps for each guitar have a slightly different color to them. It's interesting.

Hi Marshall,

glad you like the videos - thank you very much.

Yes, that was the reason why I strummed: Most PUs sound far better fingerpicked than strummed.
And yes, indeed, I was surprised how good the Sunrise sounded.

When doing my first wave maps around one year ago I tried different microphones and could hear different flavors - from Shure SM57, Neumann KM184, AKG C535, EarTrumpet Edwina, Rode NT5, Neumann KM84, Schoeps MK4 - and even a Neumann U67. The one I liked most back then was a friend's Neumann KM 185. It is an omni pattern mic with super enhanced trebles. I positioned it close to my right shoulder angled down to the sondhole. I was looking for some super airiness in the wavemaps and got it this way. After playing some gigs I realized it was to crisp and the trebles sounded to harsh. Now I settled on the position where the mic is angled down pointing to the neck/body joint. Trying different mics in this position proofed what James May stated: There's more to the position than to the mic when creating wavemaps. I think this is good news, because you don't have to spend much money for creating decent wavemaps. The Rode NT5 did a great job in my testing, so you don't need a Schoeps or a Neumann.

jwellsy · #14 04-02-2020, 06:17 AM

What a great resource! Thanks.

Too bad the youtube compression algorithm adds a flavoring. But, you can still hear how the TD IR's can influence the plugged-in sound, a little or a lot.

It was interesting how many of them I actually preferred the TD bypassed.

Robin, Wales · #15 04-02-2020, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwellsy

What a great resource! Thanks.

Too bad the youtube compression algorithm adds a flavoring. But, you can still hear how the TD IR's can influence the plugged-in sound, a little or a lot.

It was interesting how many of them I actually preferred the TD bypassed.

Me too. Particularly the Martin 017 with the K&K pure mini. I have one fitted to my guitar and have played around with pre-amps but actually when it's plugged straight into the p/a desk it sounds the best (so far). I don't have a TD.

It must be frustrating that in some cases the TD made a positive difference over the raw p/u but in others not so. It is a lot of money to spend if you can't get exactly what you want from it (ie, to sound like your guitar mic'd). None of the clips sounded as good as each guitar did just on the mic', which is a disappointment really.