12 string high end guitar for Kottke style

[Eso612]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

A Bozo...made by Bozo himself...is going to cost you as much as a James Olson 12 string, so it is not an option according to this OP

So...Eso612 a couple of questions:

What do you want a 12 string to do, sound wise that your LKSM is not apparently doing for you? There is nothing out there on the market that is going to give you a better "Kottke" sound/tone than what you have already, so want more are you shooting for?

How much more $$$ are you looking so spend...you maximum amount you are willing to go? Again, there really are NOT any better 12 strings out there than your LKSM...different sure, different looks, woods, and tone, but NOT better...at any higher price points, especially if you are chasing the Kottke sound. Now if you are looking for a different sound/tone, then we can help you, but let us know what you are after that is different than what you have.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

Thank you duff. Yes a Bozo is too expensive too.
What am I looking for? Is it hard to explain. And in english is even worst.
I mean more responsive with less string tension, for example. That is what my Guild does well. But keeping a more modern sound like the LKSM. More subtle tones. More singing trebeles. Keeping an overall warmth sound. I don't imagine a total different sound but a slightly improved one.
The budget? 4-6-7000? It depends how much better the guitar is.

[jimmy bookout]

I don't know this (!) but I think I read that you can put a regular light gauge 12 string set on a Leo Kottke and tune it to standard pitch. Have you tried that?

PS. Please confirm with someone who KNOWS that you can do what I think (!) you can do

[Eso612]

Originally Posted by jimmy bookout

I don't know this (!) but I think I read that you can put a regular light gauge 12 string set on a Leo Kottke and tune it to standard pitch. Have you tried that?

PS. Please confirm with someone who KNOWS that you can do what I think (!) you can do

Yes you can do that. But why buy a LKSM and tune it standard pitch with light gauge? You can do that with any other 12 string guitar more suited to that.
i don't like a 12 string guitar tuned to standard pitch

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by Eso612

Thank you duff. Yes a Bozo is too expensive too.
What am I looking for? Is it hard to explain. And in english is even worst.
I mean more responsive with less string tension, for example. That is what my Guild does well. But keeping a more modern sound like the LKSM. More subtle tones. More singing trebeles. Keeping an overall warmth sound. I don't imagine a total different sound but a slightly improved one.
The budget? 4-6-7000? It depends how much better the guitar is.

OK Eso612 that helps!

Well...with what you are describing, a more lush modern sound is what I feel like I hear you saying you are after...yes?

Then I would suggest a Goodall 12 string made by luthier James Goodall in either his RS dreadnaught body shape or his jumbo body shape.

Goodall guitars are super lush, complex, warm and responsive guitars...now...it is NOT going to do the Kottke sound well at all...much too lush...but you have that covered with the LKSM. So from what you say, I can not think of a better guitar for the tone I feel like you are describing than the Goodall.

Another guitar that would be awesome...but are very rare to find...would be a vintage Yamaha FG-2000 or FG-2500 12 string. Those are circa the 1970's and are stellar guitars, just hard to find, but they would also give you the sound you are after.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[blue]

You're lucky. The "weird" tuning has made it one of the truly great deals out there when it comes to very special signature models. I used to own a 90's 12 string 555. Great guitar. The LKSMs I've played were every bit as good.

[Eso612]

Originally Posted by blue

You're lucky. The "weird" tuning has made it one of the truly great deals out there when it comes to very special signature models. I used to own a 90's 12 string 555. Great guitar. The LKSMs I've played were every bit as good.

I know I am lucky. A lot of people would like to own a LKSM. Maybe I should think less and come back to work

[Eso612]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

OK Eso612 that helps!

Well...with what you are describing, a more lush modern sound is what I feel like I hear you saying you are after...yes?

Then I would suggest a Goodall 12 string made by luthier James Goodall in either his RS dreadnaught body shape or his jumbo body shape.

Goodall guitars are super lush, complex, warm and responsive guitars...now...it is NOT going to do the Kottke sound well at all...much too lush...but you have that covered with the LKSM. So from what you say, I can not think of a better guitar for the tone I feel like you are describing than the Goodall.

Another guitar that would be awesome...but are very rare to find...would be a vintage Yamaha FG-2000 or FG-2500 12 string. Those are circa the 1970's and are stellar guitars, just hard to find, but they would also give you the sound you are after.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

Thank you duff. I thought about a Goodall too. But I was wondering if it may have too much overtones to play Kottke's music

[mcduffnw]

Well...

I would say that yes, it might be too lush to really do justice to a lot of Kottke's music he played on the 12 string.

It would sound different that is for sure. But again, other than going to a good rosewood 12 string, like a Guild F-512, which is what I would recommend, you really are not going to do a whole lot better than the LKSM for doing Leo's stuff.

Now, the Guild F-512 would still be muscular enough in it's timbre, but with the warmer rosewood tone, to do the Kottke stuff justice, but with a bit more sparkle and chime in the high end than the LKSM, so that might be the better choice for what you are looking for. All the same power, with a warmer, sweeter, wetter rosewood tone and timbre.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[pmichael]

Originally Posted by Eso612

Can you name some other brands at a higher price?

Recently saw a couple of Bozo (say Bozho) 12 strings that used to be Kottke's for sale in the $50,000 range.

[Lake Sagatagan]

In 1975, at a music shop in St. Louis Park, MN, I was looking at a Guild F212XL. I asked the salesman what he thought of it. His reply: "The shop brought in two this week. Yesterday, Leo Kottke bought the first one." I guess that means Kottke thought it had that Kottke sound.

P.S. I still have it. The guitar. Not the sound.

[tadol]

Keep your eyes open and you might find one of these - love mine -

[cliff_the_stiff]

Originally Posted by Eso612

Thank you duff. Yes a Bozo is too expensive too.
What am I looking for? Is it hard to explain. And in english is even worst.
I mean more responsive with less string tension, for example. That is what my Guild does well. But keeping a more modern sound like the LKSM. More subtle tones. More singing trebeles. Keeping an overall warmth sound. I don't imagine a total different sound but a slightly improved one.
The budget? 4-6-7000? It depends how much better the guitar is.

Less string tension- Maybe try a Taylor 562 12 fret/ 12 string.

[jimmy bookout]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

A Taylor LKSM 12-string, is a very nice 12-string. For the Kottke sound, it's pretty hard to improve on that.

I use a Guild F512 tuned with light gauge strings to concert pitch. I have put heavier strings on this guitar and tuned it down to 4 half steps below concert pitch, and while it sounds very good for the music I do, it's probably too bassy for a good Kottke sound. Which is why Leo Kottke, I am guessing, tends to use 12-strings built with mahogany back and sides. The Guild F512 uses rosewood back and sides.

- Glenn

I remember an interview with Leo ages ago and he was pretty adamant about Mahogany back and sides on a 12 string. He said that rosewood had too much "jangle and tingle" (I've never forgotten that phrase!) on a 12 string.

[blue]

Originally Posted by jimmy bookout

I remember an interview with Leo ages ago and he was pretty adamant about Mahogany back and sides on a 12 string. He said that rosewood had too much "jangle and tingle" (I've never forgotten that phrase!) on a 12 string.

He also once referred to something along the lines "dark clouds" of a rosewood guitar regardless of 6 or 12 string.

I hear it as "metallic" myself. Only have one rosewood myself. A Gibson AJ. One of the least "rosewoody" sounding models out there. Maybe because of the light top build (for a factory guitar). And the monel retros I run on it don't hurt either

[HFox]

Originally Posted by tadol

Keep your eyes open and you might find one of these - love mine -

I just knew Tadol would show up on this thread......He speaks the truth.....A SCGC F 12 is exactly what you should look for.