Neumann KM84 vs. Schoeps MK4 - comparison vid

[guitarman68]

Hi,

fellow AGF member Knives & Guitars asked me about the difference in sound between these highly regarded microphones. It's a shame: I could not describe in detail. But here is a vid I produced today - maybe you can help out.

https://youtu.be/mtkmw_W3CGY

[rick-slo]

In this video a trace more clarity with the Schoeps.

[jim1960]

Both mics do a fine job but there's quite a bit of difference to my ears. I'm hearing quite a bit rolled off the top of the Schoeps compared to the Neumann. Side-by-side like this, the Schoeps sounds a little choked but not in a "sucked all the life out of it" way. I'd be perfectly happy if either pair were my only SDC mics. If I had both, I think I'd be reaching for the 84s for more dynamic tracks and the Schoeps for light to medium intensity fingerpicking or leads played against strumming tracks. But like I said, they're both fantastic mics.

[AcousticDreams]

Thank you so much Guitarman88 for doing this comparison....

Wow, quite a difference between the two. I am glad the ability to describe the difference in words was not in your realm...Cause this live comparison is so informative.

I get now why so many engineers praise the KM84's. That is all I have been hearing for years...KM84's rock. They really capture the Edge...of each note. This makes those notes stand out. As we all heard in some of those fantastic 60's & 70's guitar recording=they stood out in the mix.

With that being said...I think there is a place for both microphones depending on the guitarist and his guitar. No such thing as one perfect solution.

While I sincerely love what you have shown me about the KM84, and can easily recognize this mic in some of those old great recordings....I am pretty sure that the Schoeps I choose...would actually work better for my style. I am a bit of a wild man..and my guitar is rather edgy as it is. My guess from listening to this comparison that the Schoeps would work better for most of my compositions. Taming some of my beastly playing. Yet, I can also hear in my mind where some compositions would really benifit from the KM84's projection. Just like Guitars...we don't own just one guitar with one sound do we?

Maybe someday in the future...when some extra cash just rains down..I will have to search for these golden Gems. For now I will be very happy with my new Schoeps 621's.

But your video does make me think..and dream. What more could anyone ask for. Always nice to keep dreaming.

Thanks again..very helpful.

[AcousticDreams]

By the Way Guitarman88, which mics do you think represents your guitar the most accurately?

[Doug Young]

Nice comparison, thanks. It's great to hear a side-by-side of these.

I think they both sound good. The Schoeps are a little more than 1db quieter than the km84 on the fingerstyle clip, enough to make some difference in perception. After adjusting for that, I have a pretty hard time telling the difference. Looking at the EQ curves, it appears the km84s have more sub-bass, maybe more suspectible to vibration, while the Schoeps are a little rolled off in the highs (like 1db). Comparing mics is hard, this could even be just because the Schoeps are spaced out an inch or so wider.

The red curve is the Schoeps here:

Screen Shot 2020-09-14 at 2.11.58 PM.jpg

All in all, I'd be happy with either one, but I'm happy to hear that the Schoeps hold up fine against a legend!

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Nice comparison, thanks. It's great to hear a side-by-side of these.

I think they both sound good. The Schoeps are a little more than 1db quieter than the km84 on the fingerstyle clip, enough to make some difference in perception. After adjusting for that, I have a pretty hard time telling the difference. Looking at the EQ curves, it appears the km84s have more sub-bass, maybe more suspectible to vibration, while the Schoeps are a little rolled off in the highs (like 1db). Comparing mics is hard, this could even be just because the Schoeps are spaced out an inch or so wider.

The red curve is the Schoeps here:

Attachment 43870

All in all, I'd be happy with either one, but I'm happy to hear that the Schoeps hold up fine against a legend!

So glad you measured the difference. It did Straight away seem as if the Schoeps were recorded & thusly played back at a lower level.

Are you able to give us the recording in Re-Adjusted equal levels? I would be super interested in hearing that.

While I did notice a level difference, there still sounded like a difference in the edge-quickness of response of each note with the 84's. So this is very fascinating= if it is only the Volume levels that makes this seem this way, while in actuality it is nothing more that our perception because of level.

Shocking how close the two are in the graph.

[rick-slo]

As in all these hand on comparisons it's virtually impossible to play the same way each time. For example I noticed
different picking distances from bridge and variation on level of digging in with the pick. Nevertheless about as good
as it gets for these type of things.

[guitarman68]

Hi,

thank you all so much for your precious time, ears, knowledge ... what a great place AGF is !

Some details:
I played each guitar only once, just to avoid variations in dynamics, pick angle ... and more.
The mics go directly to four channels of my preamp.
I adjusted the levels as good as I could by controlling the level meters, the KM84s needed a bit more on the preamp.
Placement of the mics is - from left to right (from a listener's view):
Schoeps - Neumann - Schoeps - Neumann
That means that in the mic pair pointing to the 14th fret the Schoeps being the outer on, and in the mic pair pointing to the bridge the Neumann being the outer one. Maybe this contributes to the higher bass response we can notice in Doug's graph, but I don't know, if that makes sense.

To me it's quite impossible to decide which mics I like better or which mics will reproduce the pure acoustic sound of my guitar closer - they're simply to close.
But working with KM184s for a long time I still remember I believed I could not trust my ears when I first heard me playing through either KM84 and Schoeps MK4. Not only the quality of the trebles but the way how both were able to capture / embrace the body of the instrument even from a wider distance.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by guitarman68

Hi,

thank you all so much for your precious time, ears, knowledge ... what a great place AGF is !

Some details:
I played each guitar only once, just to avoid variations in dynamics, pick angle ... and more.
The mics go directly to four channels of my preamp.
I adjusted the levels as good as I could by controlling the level meters, the KM84s needed a bit more on the preamp.
Placement of the mics is - from left to right (from a listener's view):
Schoeps - Neumann - Schoeps - Neumann
That means that in the mic pair pointing to the 14th fret the Schoeps being the outer on, and in the mic pair pointing to the bridge the Neumann being the outer one. Maybe this contributes to the higher bass response we can notice in Doug's graph, but I don't know, if that makes sense.

To me it's quite impossible to decide which mics I like better or which mics will reproduce the pure acoustic sound of my guitar closer - they're simply to close.
But working with KM184s for a long time I still remember I believed I could not trust my ears when I first heard me playing through either KM84 and Schoeps MK4. Not only the quality of the trebles but the way how both were able to capture / embrace the body of the instrument even from a wider distance.

What a great video thanks for doing and sharing that. for that.
I have say up front I don't see how someone could go wrong with either of the mic's I have owned one Schoeps CMC6-MK4 (and honestly regret having to sell it) I have no experience with the 84 's

Particulars of analysis have been pretty well covered so I'll simply offer (noting this is from my observation and perspective only) just a couple heartfelt suggestions for any future A/B comparison type videos.

#1 Even with just my ear buds and laptop it seemed the Schoeps were at slightly lower volume level, and the importance of this on human perception, and that at normal listening levels "louder always sounds better " cannot be over stressed.
No matter how skilled and practiced our critical listening skills are , the psychoacoustics involved will mean even 1 db and sometimes less of volume increase, will almost always be perceived as the superior sound.

Quick anecdote ,,,While taking a 12 week critical listening class at Berklee Collage Of Music for three different weeks one from the beginning, middle and end of the course, we did blind A/B listening tests where we judged the sound quality of various recordings of pieces of music. We thought we were analyzing different pre amps, BUT were actually only analyzing different volume levels Unknown to us,, many times the same two recordings were played with incremental .5 db volume increases, that were then switched between the two on different weeks . And 90% of time we perceived the louder of the two as being the better sound quality even when it was the opposite of how we had previously judged them .

#2 Human memory being what it is (or more accurately what it isn't ) in A/B comparison, 4 or 5 second single phrase, back and forth clips IMO yield more direct comparison accuracy, as opposed to longer segments .
Just some thoughts for the future

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by KevWind

#1 Even with just my ear buds and laptop it seemed the Schoeps were at slightly lower volume level, and the importance of this on human perception, and that at normal listening levels "louder always sounds better " cannot be over stressed.
No matter how skilled and practiced our critical listening skills are , the psychoacoustics involved will mean even 1 db and sometimes less of volume increase, will almost always be perceived as the superior sound.

Quick anecdote ,,,While taking a 12 week critical listening class at Berklee Collage Of Music for three different weeks one from the beginning, middle and end of the course, we did blind A/B listening tests where we judged the sound quality of various recordings of pieces of music. We thought we were analyzing different pre amps, BUT were actually only analyzing different volume levels Unknown to us,, many times the same two recordings were played with incremental .5 db volume increases, that were then switched between the two on different weeks . And 90% of time we perceived the louder of the two as being the better sound quality even when it was the opposite of how we had previously judged them .

#2 Human memory being what it is (or more accurately what it isn't ) in A/B comparison, 4 or 5 second single phrase, back and forth clips IMO yield more direct comparison accuracy, as opposed to longer segments .
Just some thoughts for the future

Love your Story of taking Classes at at Berklee Kev Wind. Very Enlightening. I knew there were perceived differences in volume...but had no Idea as to the amount of the degree it plays until both you and Doug mentioned it. Amazing, only .5db made such a difference.

The Record Side of AGF, has offered more helpful information that any at Gearslutz. More civil, thoughtful and revealing information. I am so Thankful.

I have been involved in lots of different professions during my lifetime. Half of them involving music in one way or another. A musician, A Commercial Brochure guitar Photographer, & During the late 80's and early 90's I sold high end speakers. I worked for a high end shop that often catered to movie stars and musicians. One speaker in particular that was then used as master monitors for Classical Recording studios, Baur & Wilkins at $5K.

At the time, there were other stores that carried well respected speakers that were not flat. The speakers from the brands we carried were smooth and flat.

People who were Store hopping-listening to different brands would at first think that our speakers sounded a bit boring. They had just come from stores that sold high end speakers that were noted for their high end sizzle.
So I would kindly ask them to sit in our sound room alone and I would turn up the volume of the speaker pretty loud and walk away for 20 minutes. I would first...talk them with the volume up high...so that they could physical note that the speakers were up loud.
At the end if the 20 minutes, I would then ask them to go back to the other store and listen to the other speakers for the same time period also at a loud volume.

They always came back and purchased our speakers. They would say.." We get it now. Those speakers fatigued our ears."

What was happening is that the treble enhancement was exciting at first. But long term listening, that high end peak was cutting into the ears like a knife.

[Bob Womack]

There was a study done in the '80s where they asked people to compare two versions of a video clip and decide which one had better video. Unknown to the subjects, all that was changed between the two was that the audio fidelity and volume were reduced on one of the examples. The test subjects overwhelmingly judged that the example with better audio fidelity and higher volume had better picture quality.

A similar result has been observed when listeners A/B speakers. The average listener will consider the louder speaker better.

Bob

[Doug Young]

This is a nicely done demo. These things are so hard, and you did a great job. It's really cool to be able to hear a well-recorded (and well played) demo of these 2 mics.!

Sorry, I missed your mic setup - you did set up so that the distance was the same. The mics are shifted slightly, but there's no real way around that. I find that even when mics are clearly radically different, it's still hard to do comparisons and overcome biases. I'll record with two radically different mics, pick the one I like best, then come back the next day and have the opposite opinion! So when they're close like this, it's even harder.

in any case, levels are a big factor - Fran Guidry is who first made me aware of how important this is, back when he was doing lots of gear investigation. If I recall correctly Fran cited some studies that something as small as .1 db can make a difference and that's so small, we wouldn't be conscious of it. But I think things are even more complicated than that, since mics respond differently, so simple overall levels and frequency response don't capture the whole story. I took another look at this, using the fingerstyle OM example. Here's the levels as measured by Audition, as recorded (I'm capturing this from You Tube, so I'm working with streamed data rates, whatever that might do to the sound quality):

Levels Raw.jpg

Then I normalized to -3db, and got this result (I also tried Audition's perceived Loudness Match, but basically got the same result):

Levels Matched.jpg

So now we're matched at -15 LUFS, peaks are within 0.01 db. Oddly, the "Loudness" measurement now has the Schoeps up by about 1db, while the "Percieved" measurement is up by 0.1 db. These are all just different ways to weight and measure loudness, which I think gives some clue that it's not all that easy to even define what it means to have the same exact level...

In any case, to my ear, the levels now sound identical, and I can even AB between tracks and hear virtually no difference. I overlaid the waveforms in photoshop, which is very interesting:

WaveformCompare.jpg

We see a lot of small differences between the two waveforms (The KM84 is pink). So we see some green peaks popping out here and there. If I reverse the order, we also see pink peaks popping out. So transients and exact waveform shape is simply different. Could be some issues with the resolution of the image, etc, but even in the DAW, I see a very subtle shift when I flip between files. So I'd say that the response is at least a little different between the mics, in subtle ways, which isn't too surprising.

One big difference is the tail. The KM84 falls off quickly, the Schoeps is fatter and longer. Any chance you faded that one faster for the video? There's a transition there - some video editors fade audio on a transition.

I took the level-adjusted clips, lined them up and interleaved them, like this, 1st phrase KM84s, 2nd Schoeps, etc...

Interleaved.jpg

And the result sounds like this: (Can you hear when the mics change?) - Guitarman, hope you don't mind me reposting this




To me, in spite of the measurements and so on above that show that there are differences, the mics are so close, you could do an overdub or punch in (pretty much what I did here), swapping mics, and it probably wouldn't be noticeable.

[guitarman68]

Wow, Doug, that's awesome ! Thanks so much for all the work you put into it.
I tried your "new mix" and couldn't hear any difference.
And yes, I have to admit, I used fade out on the KM84 fingerpicking file - sorry, I should have noticed that earlier. So the tracks are unprocessed with this exception: fade out on KM84 fingerpicked.