Acoustic Guitar Building Secrets...

[tadol]

Really great builders do many things by experience and without specific thought. The way they orient the grain of a piece of wood, the angle they sharpen a chisel at, the way they judge a tap or what they listen for. These aren’t secrets - they are actions taken (frequently) without conscious thought, based on experience and judgement. I remember a moment while watching Bruce Sexauer working, he was clearly operating in a very specific way which I could tell by looking, but I couldn’t determine what the criteria was for his choices, so I asked. He stopped, and just looked at me, and said “ I don’t know - this is just the right way - “ He actually stopped and thought a minute, and went into more detail, but essentially, he doesn’t even think about it. He has a process, and he does it with intent, but he no longer actively thinks about it - it has become second nature, so his attention is on other aspects. Is that a secret? Maybe - if you think the builder is not actively thinking about it while doing it, they might never stop to imagine its something they should explain. But most, if asked, are very willing to explain their process, once they think about it - so its hard to call these secrets -

And that may be one of the difference between a factory build and a solo luthier. While a shop person might make a choice about a process that simplifies or improves their specific step of the build, a solo builder might make a choice based on many other criteria -

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by drbluegrass

...What are some of the acoustic guitar building secrets that make guitars sound like those from Prewar Guitar Co, Merrill, B&H, Altman, Bourgeois, Collings, Santa Cruz, Mike Long, Thompson, Hooper, Caleb Smith, and other high end guitars? And, why don't most acoustic guitars sound like them? Are there really any "secrets" to acoustic guitar building? When you look them over most of the bracing, bodies, necks, bridges, etc., look the same. Just what makes an acoustic guitar sound really outstanding?

Try it for 30 years to find out. Your question is wrong. You cannot pack over 200 years of guitar building history into "what are guitar building secrets". You just CANNOT!!

One builder says, "build to a half step short of self implosion due to string tension", but if another builder does this, his/her guitar might sound like garbage. Other builders build guitars that are heavier and more strongly braced, but sound great because they are STIFF in the RIGHT spots and LOOSE in the RIGHT spots.

Your question is wrong.

[Alan Carruth]

So what are the secrets of walking and chewing gum at the same time?

The irony is that it has been rightly said that what passes for normal conversation between American luthiers would, in any other business, be called 'industrial espionage'. As an example:
I went to a luthier's convention several years ago, which features a 'shootout' where makers bring in guitars to be played back to back by an experienced player. The stand-out instrument in the 'classical' shootout was made by Jeff Elliot. One of the amateur makers said that he asked Jeff to tell him how he 'voiced' his tops. He 'didn't have time right then': the amateur figured he just didn't want to share his 'secret'. The next day the fellow was walking across the campus and saw Jeff an his wife, Cyndy, coming toward him. Jeff said something the Cyndy, who walked away, and he came over to the amateur maker and said: " Now I have the time". He spent about 45 minutes going through the whole process.

This is far from unusual. I've never had a guitar maker refuse to answer a properly asked question. You do have to know how, and what, to ask, though! Keep in mind, too, that these thing are incredibly complex; answers that convey real information tend to be complex as well, and you may not understand things well enough to figure the answer out. Although there is getting to be more and more application of objective measurement in this field, most makers still do work at least in part by 'feel', and that can be difficult to convey. Describe the taste of ginger ale without referring to another flavor.

This contrasts almost diametrically with the attitude in some other countries, or other instruments. There are some reasons for this. To me, the most notable is the situation hand makers of guitars found themselves fifty years ago. There was no 'craft' tradition; no individual knew enough to be able to make a passable guitar, and the general public was not even aware that guitars could be made outside of factories. The only way for any of us to get anywhere was to share the little we knew; between the bunch of us we could figure it out. Once the habit was formed we kept it up. The result is that American guitars are now among the best. The level of craft is scary compared with what it was forty years ago. There are no 'secrets', but you must be prepared to work hard for several years to reach what is now considered to be an 'average' level in this craft. That's why there are no short answers.

[coldfingers]

Alan, it's not just luthiers. In my experience, the real masters in any field never worry or think about "secrets." They would be happy to tell you all they know, if only you could understand what they were saying.

[printer2]

Originally Posted by tadol

And that may be one of the difference between a factory build and a solo luthier. While a shop person might make a choice about a process that simplifies or improves their specific step of the build, a solo builder might make a choice based on many other criteria -

I can't say much between the difference in the skill level at a factory shop person (foreman?) or a luthier. What I can say is that I used to work at an aerospace parts manufacturer (the other thread made me think of it and now reading this post also) and there were two kinds of engineers there, design engineers and production engineers. The production engineers worked on the shop floor making sure the processes they had were making the parts to spec. The company was having money problems and they decided to get rid of the process engineers, we already had the build process on paper, the workers just had to build the parts to the 'recipe' if you will.

But eventually problems developed. A part was being stamped out of sheet metal but there were creases where there should not have been. The operators are following the method, what gives? No one knew what to do. The thing about the process engineers is they would have said, we had this problem 12 years ago, what did we do to fix it. Oh yeah, raise the temperature of the dies by 15 degrees. It was because the material that came in had slightly different properties than normal, it still met our requirements (I did testing on the incoming material to make sure it was what we were told it was).

Now I can see someone at the big manufacturers having a few guys that designed their processes and troubleshot problems on the floor when they occurred. They might even have more knowledge than many luthiers on account of they have so much more material makes it through the place in one day then a luthier may see in a career. But they are not trying to get the most out of the instruments, just the most with the least amount of failures.

[Bruce Sexauer]

About ten years ago, Ervin Somogyi was researching his books and asked a number of luthiers he respected to answer a few questions. The one I most remember was "What do you do differently as compared to other luthiers?". At that point I had no idea how other luthiers did much of anything. Since then I have learned a great deal about how others handle the various issues we all deal with, and largely because of Ervin's question. It is probably no secret, but it is one of the biggest influences another builder has had on my working life.

Of course the many makers sharing in forums like this one make it a lot easier for each of us to know how unique we are. There are an amazing number of ways through the maze!

[MC5C]

Bob Benedetto said, about the mystical and magical world of archtop bracing, words to the effect of "if you do it with thought and execute it well, it's going to sound good..." while discussing the traditional X and parallel brace, and the fan brace and the Stromberg single diagonal brace, and the single ladder brace he found inside a D'Angelico...

Brian

[redir]

In so far as intellectual property and trade secrets go like Alan said luthiers tend to be very open about sharing. I think it's a two way street because when you share you learn too. I built my first guitar in the pre dark ages of the Internet in 1990. All you really had back then were the few books out there and they were pretty much just construction manuals, follow this recipe and you get a guitar.

Those of you who have been around for a while might remember the LMI catalog, That thing was great. It was my only insight into what the top pro's of the time were doing and it was full of 'secrets.' Stew Mac also came out with a 'trade secrets' article in their catalogue but that was mostly repair stuff, still VERY valuable at the time.

The Internet obviously changed the game and almost 30 years later I am still learning things. It's pretty incredible to have conversations with some of the top builders in the world some of whom have posted just above.

So in a way you can learn secrets just like you can for example learn how to play. A good teacher will help you short cut your progression as a guitar player and open your eyes to things you never would have thought of yourself. But in the end it's practice, repetition and improvisation that gets you to your own signature sound.... Same thing with building really.

[Truckjohn]

Originally Posted by yellowesty

Ha! Another refusal to divulge the secrets of luthiery -- and to brazenly deny that they exist. It reminds one of the earlier refusals and denials regarding the corporately-held 60 mpg carburetors that Detroit (in collusion with Big Oil) refused to share with the American public. I expect that we'll now hear denials about the luthiers' secret handshake as well. Sad.

Lol. Super funny. I owned and drove a car that could get 54mpg regularly on tanks and if I drove it hard - it averaged 48.... I did manage to hit 60 on a few tanks. There are still plenty of folks who drive them - and many do 60 mpg through careful driving habits. It's called a Geo Metro. It was a re-badged Suzuki Cultus. They sold them all over the world by the millions for the better part of 15 years.

Hate to burst the tinfoil hat conspiracy bubble - but the reason they don't sell them is that consumers simply don't care. Not in the USA.... Not in Europe.. Literally nobody wants to buy a teeny, aerodynamic, low friction economy car...... I bet you don't own one either.... Not because they aren't available - but because you really don't actually want one either.

When you get into actual building of guitars - you quickly learn the real "Secrets" are stuff that players and enthusiasts care not ONE whit about..... They are the secrets that turn wood into an attractive, first quality musical instrument... The secret of how to joint the top properly... The secret of how to install binding so it looks clean.. How to bend sides... The secret of how to lay out frets and do intonation so the instrument plays in tune... The secret of how to level the fretboard so the frets only require minimal levelling. The secret of laying on a first quality finish... Etc....

These are the real secrets.....

[ManyMartinMan]

Originally Posted by drbluegrass

...What are some of the acoustic guitar building secrets.... Are there really any "secrets" to acoustic guitar building?...

There certainly are "proprietary" building processes that aren't shared with the general public. I recently bought a custom build and the builder was very specific about this when i was asking about the build. If you want to know that builder's "secrets", reverse engineering is always possible.

[Joel Teel]

I love the (almost uncontrollable) enthusiasm that Rachel displays throughout this video. It quickly becomes obvious that building guitars is a passion for her, and not simply a job...and this, in my opinion, is the foundational element to becoming great at what you choose to do.

My favorite part of the video, is when she's explaining to him about shaping the braces, and how it must be done by hand. She then looks right into his eyes and says, "I don't want just a good guitar...I want a great guitar...otherwise, why bother."

For those who haven't seen this video, here's a link to it.....well worth your time:

http://youtu.be/PC6Acydf0jc

Originally Posted by MC5C

I think the reason that luthiery is filled with secrets is that so many of the details that make the differences in sound come down to intuition, feel, tactile response, hearing "something" that means "something" about tapping a plate. And an inability to transfer that knowledge with words. In an apprenticeship one can demonstrate often enough to teach, one can simply build a lot of guitars, pay attention and teach yourself what is important (and repeatable) to you, some people use engineering skills to reduce "feel" to deflection under load and vibrating patterns of dust, even then you need to be able to make decisions on what you learn from testing your wood.

I was watching the video of Anthony Bourdain with Rachel Rosenkrantz, and watched how she tapped the freshly glued soundboard. The difference is that she tapped it with a small hammer (very repeatable) and she said "two seconds. I like to hear between two and three seconds" or words to that effect. Light bulb went on for me - so THAT'S what she thinks is very important, I never considered measuring the duration of the resonance from the tap... But now I've learned - been taught - and I will tap plates that way - and my way - from now on. A secret may have been unveiled...

Brian

[mercy]

There are many nuances that have not been shared. The problem is that different builders have different nuances so the question cannot be answered in a universal way. If the builders responding on this thread would share their nuances of building it would be too long for a forum format.

[Joel Teel]

Speaking from my experience, during the building process of my first two guitars, I was guided by the knowledge of Steve Sheriff...He guided me through the entire process, and these two guitars sound significantly better than my '93 and '95 prized Taylor guitars. I love building guitars, and find myself most intrigued by the voicing process. Steve, teaching me from his years of experience, showed me the bracing pattern, the choice of materials for the braces, the location to glue them...every aspect of crafting the tone of these two guitars. He had me removing much more wood from the braces than I would have ever dared on my own...but I trusted his experience, and these two guitars sound amazing because of his knowledge...

I'm now bracing my next two guitars...and I'm finding that I'm more confident, and that I understand the process better than I did last go-round. My ears are hearing the subtle nuances more acutely, because my vocabulary of tone is developing. I expect that this will continue to develop as I continue to build.

I, by no stretch of the imagination, believe that my guitars would sound anywhere near this good without Steve's guidance (based on his years of experience)...but the fact that he's helping me develop my craft, insures that they will sound great up until the point that I learn to make them sound great without requiring his assistance.

So, to reply to your question directly, there is no secret. One simply needs passion, and experience.....and enough quality time with the instrument to slowly, and methodically, chip away at the stone in order to uncover the voice hidden inside.

Joel

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by Truckjohn

Lol. Super funny. I owned and drove a car that could get 54mpg regularly on tanks and if I drove it hard - it averaged 48.... I did manage to hit 60 on a few tanks. There are still plenty of folks who drive them - and many do 60 mpg through careful driving habits. It's called a Geo Metro. It was a re-badged Suzuki Cultus. They sold them all over the world by the millions for the better part of 15 years.

Hate to burst the tinfoil hat conspiracy bubble - but the reason they don't sell them is that consumers simply don't care. Not in the USA.... Not in Europe.. Literally nobody wants to buy a teeny, aerodynamic, low friction economy car...... I bet you don't own one either.... Not because they aren't available - but because you really don't actually want one either.

When you get into actual building of guitars - you quickly learn the real "Secrets" are stuff that players and enthusiasts care not ONE whit about..... They are the secrets that turn wood into an attractive, first quality musical instrument... The secret of how to joint the top properly... The secret of how to install binding so it looks clean.. How to bend sides... The secret of how to lay out frets and do intonation so the instrument plays in tune... The secret of how to level the fretboard so the frets only require minimal levelling. The secret of laying on a first quality finish... Etc....

These are the real secrets.....

Very good post, except the last paragraph should have technique instead of secret, none of those are really secret, but that's what you meant anyway.
I drive a 2008 Yaris that gets 40+ mpg.

Originally Posted by ManyMartinMan

There certainly are "proprietary" building processes that aren't shared with the general public. I recently bought a custom build and the builder was very specific about this when i was asking about the build. If you want to know that builder's "secrets", reverse engineering is always possible.

There are certainly some building processes that may not be generally shared, and I doubt it would possible to reveal any "secrets" by reverse engineering. Would you be able to tell if the top or back went on first? Could you tell how the thickness of the top was determined? Are you going to deconstruct the instrument to measure the material properties of the individual components? There's too many variables, and many combinations of those variables that produce a successful outcome, it would be difficult to determine a builder's intent and technique to achieve that intent.

Originally Posted by mercy

There are many nuances that have not been shared. The problem is that different builders have different nuances so the question cannot be answered in a universal way. If the builders responding on this thread would share their nuances of building it would be too long for a forum format.

There's the problem of language. There are some builders that build by feel and experience. How does one communicate how to tell what feels right?
Other builders measure material properties and build to specific resonance frequencies. That's pretty easy to communicate, if you speak the language of mathematics and physics on the level required to understand the concepts.

[ManyMartinMan]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

..There are certainly some building processes that may not be generally shared, and I doubt it would possible to reveal any "secrets" by reverse engineering. ...

Martin seemed to do just fine with the Authentic line.