When is a 1 11/16" nut not a 1 11/16" nut?

[personatech]

OK, so I'm at Harry's in Raleigh and they have a bunch of new Breedloves including a few of the new Organic series. When I was shopping for my first acoustic a couple of years ago, I quickly crossed affordable outsourced Breedloves off my list because every neck felt cramped due to their 1.6875" nut width (I also avoid G series Taks for the same reason). These days, even my Seagull S6 Slim at 1.72" feels a bit cramped - most of my playing time goes to an Eastman E1OM with a 1.75" nut, this having become my "new normal."

Well, they had a particularly nice-looking Organic Concert in myrtlewood so I picked it up to give it a strum and... whoa... this thing is comfortable!! Plenty of space on the fretboard. A salesperson drops by to see how I'm doing so I ask, "What's the width on this nut?" He says, "1 11/16 I think, but let me check." He goes away, then comes back - "Yep, specs say 1 11/16."

Now, we didn't whip out a ruler but I have to ask...how is it posssible that a 1 11/16" nut feels more like 1 3/4"? I know that the real issue is string spacing, but the E strings didn't seem too close to the fretboard edge. Assuming that the specs are correct and that the guitar itself has that spec, is it possible that the body shape of the guitar improved my hand positioning on the fretboard somehow?

FWIW, that Breedlove sounded real nice...

[Rosewood99]

Could it be possibly the thickness of the neck?

[BlueStarfish]

Nut width is what gets advertised on the spec, but string spacing at the nut is what you actually feel. Some makers tend to put their string spacing on the narrow side for a given nut width, and others on the wider side. 1/16 might seem like a small amount but can feel like a very significant difference.

I have a Yamaha silent guitar, which I purchased for late-night practice without bothering the better half. It has a 1 11/16 nut. I really wanted to like it, and even tried a couple of two-week stretches where I played only this guitar, but I could never get used to the narrow string spacing. I finally had a new nut made, with wider string spacing. Much better. New nut is still 1 11/16 (because that’s all the neck can take) but finally I can play it comfortably. I wish Yamaha would do a standard 1 3/4 nut on the silent guitar line, but they don’t, and it’s a pretty unique product, so this was the only way I could make it playable for me.

There are lots of older threads on string spacing, search for those to get more details on measurements.

[Silly Moustache]

Yeah, as much as I prefer wider fretboards (1 & 13/16" is my ideal) it is also the neck profile, and also the scale length and string spacing - all of which have an effect.
This first became apparent to me way back in, about, 1996 when I sold my '73 D35 and bought a Martin J-40 - same nut width same scale but the shallow neck made it very difficult to play my style.

I recently bought an Eastman E20P with a short scale and 1 &13/16" nut - all great - but the neck profile is very deep. which currently presses on a nerve in my palm.



My previous flat top purchase, in 2016 was a Waterloo WL-12. 1 & 3/4" but short scale and a string spacing of 2 & 3/8" which I thought might be OK. It's "OK" as I only use it at home, teaching, or at occasional intimate jams.



My archtops are all 1 & 3/4" and 25" scale and each has a very different profile but none are problematic due to the different playing style.





Hope that helps.

[mawmow]

Nut width is a rough indicator of string spacing : You have to measure the
whole E to e string spacing as string spacing may vary a bit but this maybe
significant enough for more fretting comfort.

For example, I changed the nut of my Godin 5th Avenue for a Taylor one
and so got a larger string spacing.

I can also feel the difference between Gibson's 1,725 and 1,75" nut width
as string spacing is concerned.

[AZLiberty]

Advertised nut width and actual nut width are often quite a bit different.

Only way to know is to use a set of calipers.

Example. My Rainsong. Advertised nut width is 1-3/4 or 1.75". It's clearly a good 20 thousandths short of that.

[Chipotle]

Yep, string spacing. I have a Yamaha and a Martin that nominally have 11-11/16" nuts. But the Yamaha feels more cramped, as the strings are "squeezed" closer to the center of the neck. The Martin strings are spaced a bit wider and those few hundreds/thousandths of an inch do make a difference.

[Dru Edwards]

Originally Posted by paulzoom

Could it be possibly the thickness of the neck?

Good point, Paul. The shape of the neck may be a factor.

[WildBill82]

You have a good bit of room to play with on a 1 11/16" nut. The stock string spacing on my D-35 felt very cramped, like I was playing a 12 string. I took the spacing out to 2 1/4" and it's still very smooth to play with the 1 11/16" on it.

[Mbroady]

Originally Posted by paulzoom

Could it be possibly the thickness of the neck?

I had this phenomenon happen to me but in the opposite direction.
My preference has always been the 1 11/16 nut. Anything wider felt to wide.
I recently picked up an older Stonebridge OM33 with a very pronounced V in the neck. It’s the only 1 3/4 nut guitar that feels comfortable to me.

[personatech]

Thanks, all! I suppose the lesson learned here is not to judge a guitar based on published specs. Didn't know so many factors come into play when determining playability! (...and Silly, thanks so much for your videos - I always enjoy them!!)

[Quickstep192]

So, are you buying it?

[personatech]

It's an hour and a half's drive away and I was just noodling with it rather than seriously considering it. Next time I'm in Raleigh, though, I'll try to swing by and have another look.

[RP]

Originally Posted by BlueStarfish

Nut width is what gets advertised on the spec, but string spacing at the nut is what you actually feel. Some makers tend to put their string spacing on the narrow side for a given nut width, and others on the wider side. 1/16 might seem like a small amount but can feel like a very significant difference...

Ditto. Although much less publicized, string spacing can be the great equalizer...

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by personatech

…Assuming that the specs are correct and that the guitar itself has that spec, is it possible that the body shape of the guitar improved my hand positioning on the fretboard somehow?…

Hi pt

Guitars are composed of more-than-specs.

Neck profile is often overlooked, as is the height of the action. Both can affect how some people perceive the neck. Also the style of playing.

All my acoustics have 1¾" nuts. All my electrics have a 1¹¹⁄₁₆" nut, yet don't feel cramped.

I'm guessing it's because I don't play solo fingerstyle arrangements on my electrics. As a backing electric player I'm playing different textures, arpeggios, fingerings, inversions…so the neck doesn't feel cramped. And all my electrics have a thin/shallow C profile, whereas the neck on my acoustics have a bit deeper profile.

I never considered the body of the guitar (nor the way it interacts with my body) affecting the way I perceive the neck, but I suppose it could. The angle of the neck in relationship to how you play certainly shifts the hand into better/worse positions.

The higher the headstock is elevated, the closer the neck is to your shoulder. If you play with the headstock chin-high, it's easier to make difficult stretches and changes than if the headstock is waist high.