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  #16  
Old 08-02-2016, 09:42 PM
Hot Vibrato Hot Vibrato is offline
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Originally Posted by gmr View Post
Since the most common means of amplifying your acoustic guitar, for the majority of the acoustic market, is by the piezo electric pickup/preamp systems, I understand and agree with Epiphone on this. The market already has a load of "hollow body" archtops with magnetic pickups. The magnetic pickups interact with the strings. The piezo pickups have more sensitivity to the guitar body as a whole, thus the notion of keeping it acoustic. I have heard one demo of the Zenith played very shortly, mic'd by a ribbon microphone. I do not think the piezo takes anything away from the acoustics of the guitar.
Floating magnetic pickups don't take anything away from the acoustic properties of the guitar, and they don't "interact" with the strings in any audible way. They just sound better in my opinion, especially when paired with a microphone (internal or external) or a contact pickup (K&K etc.).

Most of the "hollow body" archtops on the market equipped with magnetic pickups are not acoustic guitars, and they therefore can't achieve that magical sound that happens when you get the magnetic pickup and acoustic sound balanced just right. This is the classic archtop sound heard on countless recordings of various genres, and I think Epiphone missed an opportunity to introduce it to a new generation of guitarists. To my ears, an under-saddle piezo pickup just doesn't compare. Just my (not so) humble opinion.
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  #17  
Old 08-02-2016, 10:04 PM
jpd jpd is offline
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Default Well thought out?

My uneducated take on this line-up concerns the "longitudinal" bracing. In pure acoustic mode I don't see(or hear) how this top bracing will allow for a vibrating top...I see this as an amplified accessory. Am I off base on this assumption?
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  #18  
Old 08-02-2016, 11:08 PM
L50EF15 L50EF15 is offline
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Originally Posted by jpd View Post
My uneducated take on this line-up concerns the "longitudinal" bracing. In pure acoustic mode I don't see(or hear) how this top bracing will allow for a vibrating top...I see this as an amplified accessory. Am I off base on this assumption?

Parallel bracing was the standard in the original F hole archtop era.
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  #19  
Old 08-03-2016, 05:52 AM
Hot Vibrato Hot Vibrato is offline
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Originally Posted by jpd View Post
My uneducated take on this line-up concerns the "longitudinal" bracing. In pure acoustic mode I don't see(or hear) how this top bracing will allow for a vibrating top...I see this as an amplified accessory. Am I off base on this assumption?
The Loar-signed L5's of the 20's were longitudinal (parallel) braced. I believe all of the NY Epiphone archtop line was as well, as were most of the other acoustic archtops of the 20th century.

Some manufacturers used X-bracing on some models, but I've always preferred the sound of the parallel braced archtops.
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  #20  
Old 08-03-2016, 06:47 AM
Mandobart Mandobart is offline
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Originally Posted by jpd View Post
My uneducated take on this line-up concerns the "longitudinal" bracing. In pure acoustic mode I don't see(or hear) how this top bracing will allow for a vibrating top...I see this as an amplified accessory. Am I off base on this assumption?
Yes you are. Orchestral string instruments use a bass bar (of course they are bowed, vs picked most of the time). F5 mandolins have parallel tone bars and they vibrate just fine.
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  #21  
Old 08-03-2016, 11:52 AM
gmr gmr is offline
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I do agree the soundboard mounted piezo transducers seem superior to saddle mounted pickups when incorporated with a good preamp and mixed with a mic. The piezo in these guitars is said to have characteristics that allow it to better sense the movement in the soundboard along with the vibrations of the strings. In the very superficial demo they did at SXSW, the pickup sounded pretty decent.
As for the magnetic pickup not interacting with the strings, I am not following you. The steel string vibrating and interacting (interrupting the magnetic lines of flux) with the pickup's magnetic field is what creates voltage required to produce the input to an amplifier's circuitry to produce sound. Without string vibrations in the pickup's field no sound is produced, unless it would be of a microphonic nature which is not highly desirable (noise).
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  #22  
Old 08-03-2016, 12:55 PM
Hot Vibrato Hot Vibrato is offline
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As for the magnetic pickup not interacting with the strings, I am not following you.
When you said this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmr View Post
The magnetic pickups interact with the strings.
...I thought you were implying that the magnetic pickup somehow interferes with the acoustical properties of the guitar. I see now that you didn't mean it like that.

As far as the sound of the on-board piezo, we'll have to hear for ourselves what it sounds like. I was not very impressed with the sound of it, judging from the sound of video that was shot at the Epiphone NAMM booth. But I'll try to be objective when hearing it in real life. If it sounds like a typical under-saddle piezo, I'll not be a fan. I apologize for being over-opinionated on the matter, but that sound is very un-musical to my ears.
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  #23  
Old 08-03-2016, 01:42 PM
jpd jpd is offline
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Thumbs up

Thanks to....L50EF15, Hot Vibrato, Mandobart, and gmr, for discussing this and educating myself and each other in a respectful way. Enjoyed learning from you all.
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  #24  
Old 08-03-2016, 04:58 PM
gmr gmr is offline
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No apology required, Sir. Yes, that footage from NAMM was pathetic. Reverb has a decent overview and the footage posted by epiphone that was done at SXSW down in Austin showed promise.
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  #25  
Old 08-03-2016, 06:31 PM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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This from the Epi website:

"Inside the upper f-hole is a 1930s-era replica Epiphone label."

They seem to be really conficted as to what they want to produce. It's a guitar that really wants to be a re-issue, but management is not listening. What's with putting a replica label in and then putting a huge plastic panel on the lower bout?

This company is really confused,or they are throwing all the cheap and easy stuff into the mix to appeal to those that don't know any better.
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  #26  
Old 08-03-2016, 08:11 PM
gmr gmr is offline
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I kinda think they did not intend for this to be a reissue but more of a modern adaptation of the archtop genre that will have some appeal to a larger base of market than just the Jazz box crowd. The marketing they have done so far seems directed toward the Americana sort of music scene. For me, I am good with that. My archtop leanings are more Mother Maybelle and Dave Rawlings gs than Freddie King. I think with the right mix of a nice flat mic and some good eq on that pickup, it could do some respectable jazz rhythm work. I keep hoping to see one at my local Gibson dealer. Sweetwater seems to be selling the ones they have gotten in so far. I almost bought one of the natural colored f hole Zenith models but they went out the door quickly.
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  #27  
Old 08-04-2016, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
This from the Epi website:

"Inside the upper f-hole is a 1930s-era replica Epiphone label."

They seem to be really conficted as to what they want to produce. It's a guitar that really wants to be a re-issue, but management is not listening. What's with putting a replica label in and then putting a huge plastic panel on the lower bout?

This company is really confused,or they are throwing all the cheap and easy stuff into the mix to appeal to those that don't know any better.
I agree that is is rather a strange concept but I think it will work. There has been a real trend towards guitars that smack of 'bygone times' and not to get to philosophical there is a fantastic quote from cultural theorist McLuhan who, to paraphrase, noted that we move forward by looking in a rear view mirror - we attach ourselves tho the things oft he past.

I mentioned before that the same has been happening in photography for many many years. The retro camera is still attracting buyers (Fuji, Leica) and it does not seem to be abating.

So the same is happening with guitars. In an ideal world I would like an original Epiphone Olympic (so I can copy Rawlings) but they are so hard to find and so expensive. Add to that the problem that even if you find one it might not be that good. I actually would not pay that kind of money for what was touted as a student guitar. As and aside, Ryan Adams' guitar is the same. If you can find one now they are so expensive.

I am going to try one when they arrive but half of me is not expecting to be blown away. That said, I recently picked up a Gretsch resonator for peanuts and it is a superb guitar. This begs the question: are guitars simply getting better overall because of production methods?

With regards to the pickup and plastic cover. I don't mind that to be honest. If is sounds good I can live with it.
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  #28  
Old 08-04-2016, 06:32 AM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmr View Post
I kinda think they did not intend for this to be a reissue but more of a modern adaptation of the archtop genre that will have some appeal to a larger base of market than just the Jazz box crowd. The marketing they have done so far seems directed toward the Americana sort of music scene. For me, I am good with that. My archtop leanings are more Mother Maybelle and Dave Rawlings gs than Freddie King. I think with the right mix of a nice flat mic and some good eq on that pickup, it could do some respectable jazz rhythm work. I keep hoping to see one at my local Gibson dealer. Sweetwater seems to be selling the ones they have gotten in so far. I almost bought one of the natural colored f hole Zenith models but they went out the door quickly.
Agreed on their market focus.

I do like the idea of the Olympic's much smaller size. As such it should have a very focused tone that would be more desirable for certain styles of play. I'm not sure how that would translate across the wider spectrum of players, but the size is appealing to me since I'm playing smaller guitars now after a severe collarbone injury a few years ago. I had to move my Lowden on as the larger bodies are just painful to play now.

I've bought a couple of instruments from Sweetwater and was totally happy with the purchases. The personal service is nice and I like the fact that they will work with pricing if you are reasonable with them.

My opinion is that these are over-priced for what they are if you compare them to similar import instruments. My suspicions are you'll see them on a Musician's Friend Stupid Deal Of The Day within the foreseeable future in the $350-$400 range which would make them a bit more bang for the buck. We're not talking "beautiful finish over gorgeous woods" here.
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  #29  
Old 08-04-2016, 09:01 AM
Hot Vibrato Hot Vibrato is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmr View Post
I kinda think they did not intend for this to be a reissue but more of a modern adaptation of the archtop genre that will have some appeal to a larger base of market than just the Jazz box crowd. The marketing they have done so far seems directed toward the Americana sort of music scene. For me, I am good with that. My archtop leanings are more Mother Maybelle and Dave Rawlings gs than Freddie King. I think with the right mix of a nice flat mic and some good eq on that pickup, it could do some respectable jazz rhythm work.
You probably mean Freddie Green - the guy who chomped rhythm for Count Basie (Freddie King was a great blues guitarist who mainly played a 335), but I get your point, and I think you're correct. And yes - acoustic archtops are wonderful for americana, folk etc..

My archtop leanings are all over the place. I love Mother Maybelle's sound, but I also dig Eddie Lang, who also played a Loar-signed L-5. The same instrument beautifully accommodated two completely different styles from roughly the same era. I'm also a fan of western swing, honkytonk country, and swing jazz. I guess I tend to gravitate towards music that features archtop guitars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmr View Post
I think with the right mix of a nice flat mic and some good eq on that pickup, it could do some respectable jazz rhythm work.
A good acoustic archtop "barks" when you chomp out chords on it, and it's tough to get any pickup to reproduce that sound. Therefore I think a good mic without a pickup is the way to go for playing archtop rhythm guitar - jazz or otherwise. The singer for my honkytonk band played either his Kalamazoo L-50-ish guitar, or my '39 L-37, and when we performed live we just used a mic on his guitar and it sounded great. He was the heartbeat of the band, and when he broke a string and stopped, the whole bottom fell out of our sound. He unfortunately moved away recently, and as a band we're re-inventing ourselves. But the point I was making is that a microphone is sometimes the best way to amplify an acoustic guitar. Do you think David Rawlings and Gillian Welch would sound that good with piezo pickups?

Quote:
Originally Posted by washy21 View Post
I mentioned before that the same has been happening in photography for many many years. The retro camera is still attracting buyers (Fuji, Leica) and it does not seem to be abating.
The "retro" thing is huge right now. My wife has always loved mid-century antiques, furniture, fixtures, etc., but ever since the Madmen TV show came out, everyone wants that stuff, so now people charge an arm and a leg for it. She liked it better when her preference in decor was not in style, because she could get good deals on stuff that she likes, and her tastes were unique and not necessarily "trendy".

Quote:
Originally Posted by washy21 View Post
So the same is happening with guitars. In an ideal world I would like an original Epiphone Olympic (so I can copy Rawlings) but they are so hard to find and so expensive. Add to that the problem that even if you find one it might not be that good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
I do like the idea of the Olympic's much smaller size. As such it should have a very focused tone that would be more desirable for certain styles of play. I'm not sure how that would translate across the wider spectrum of players, but the size is appealing to me since I'm playing smaller guitars now after a severe collarbone injury a few years ago.
Gillian Welch and Dave Rawlings did a meet-and-greet after a show they played in Tulsa on their Soul Journey tour. I talked guitars for a minute with Dave, and he said that he's never played another Olympic that sounds like his. With any luck, the new Olympic will at least approximate that kind of sound. I think it's possible if Epiphone put some time and effort into R&D before going into production.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
My opinion is that these are over-priced for what they are if you compare them to similar import instruments. My suspicions are you'll see them on a Musician's Friend Stupid Deal Of The Day within the foreseeable future in the $350-$400 range which would make them a bit more bang for the buck. We're not talking "beautiful finish over gorgeous woods" here.
In the acoustic guitar video posted by JPD, I think it was a mistake for them to show actual vintage Epiphones right next to the new models. Aesthetically, there's just no comparison.
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  #30  
Old 08-04-2016, 09:31 AM
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With regards to the David Rawlings guitar. I wonder just how many of these Olympics he has tried in order to assert that his is one of a kind. I suspect that some of this is simply that, unlike me and many other players, he has got to know that instrument intimately.

I have two friends who are both violinists in top orchestras and they simply don't get the so called guitarists GAS. In a recent conversation they said that they have one instrument and they cherish it and know it inside out - much like Rawlings. However, we all know that different styles of guitar need different kinds of instruments - hence my interest in archtops.

I will go and try one of these guitars (Zenith and Olympic) and regardless of price it will have to sound good to me before I pay money. Over the years I have in fact come to learn that price does not always equate to greatness. I now just buy guitars if they sound and feel right to me and the price is not really a factor unless it is out of my league.
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