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  #16  
Old 12-31-2012, 06:34 PM
P_K P_K is offline
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i love that a very interesting conversation has started on this thread!

of course, nobody intended to say that any company is better than other. not my intention at all! i just wanted to add some information

the material on the picture of the Lucky is not really foam, nor the material that Alistair used for the dragon. Blackbird has evolved their construction technique a lot over the last 2 years and they are applying state of art technologies right now

regarding the dragon guitar by Emerald: the mold was not made of foam. this guitar was a one-off, os maybe a mould wasn't really needed. being that, there is no sense to do a full aluminium mold for only one guitar (insanely expensive). originally Rainsong used "temporary" molds made of carbon fiber. the problem is that the molds didn't last more than 10-20 guitars. when you only do one guitar (or a few, but not thousands) you have some other material options. anyway, foam is not an option (there's no necessity to enter into a long chat about materials here)

i can't say much more about CA and Rainsong as i have not been to their facilities, but (based on the pics i've seen) the technology is similar.

I agree with you that Alistair is an absolute genius. His building process is a well kept secret and is completely different to anything done by the rest of the companies. as far as i've read or talked with him, i can tell you that he doesn't use any material that is dissolved or anything like that

Joe Luttwak is a genius too. brilliant is not a word big enough to describe him and his work

we are blessed that such talented (and hard working people!) are building guitars for us!

Regarding the small number of guitars produced: i think that i has more to do with the size of the facilities than the technologies applied. as far as i know, Blackbird and Emerald don't intend to be huge companies with enormous production numbers. their only intention is to create the best guitars and they really put their hearts on that

by the way, do you know how many guitars does Rainsong produce a year, Ted? (i'm just curious)
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  #17  
Old 12-31-2012, 07:03 PM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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Rainsong said I believe that they make less than 1000 guitars a year?
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  #18  
Old 12-31-2012, 08:11 PM
cedarkoa599 cedarkoa599 is offline
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Originally Posted by mchalebk View Post
No, these are not about plugging in. They are absolutely good acoustic guitars. Yes, most guitarists won't even consider a CF guitar, doesn't matter how good they sound or how practical they are. They're not wood and that's a showstopper... for most guitarists.

The feature that initially attracts most guitarists to composite construction is their durability and high resistance to environmental issues. For instance, you won't ever have to worry about humidity with a CF guitar. CF guitars are much sturdier, much less likely to be damaged. For instance, with wood guitars, I had two different ones develop cracks due to low humidity and I snapped the headstock off one when it slid to the ground and hit the base of a lamp stand. I just don't have to worry about that with CF.

My first CF guitar was a CA Vintage Performer (same as vintage voiced Legacy model in the present lineup). It is a standard dread and sounds very much like a quality dreadnought.

After people get past the "not wood" stage, they learn to appreciate some of the other things that CF brings to the table: innovative shapes that sometimes allow incredible access to upper frets, light weight, crystalline tones (for some models), etc.

If you want to see some CF guitars in action, you might want to check out some of the videos on my YouTube page (link in my signature). I'm no virtuoso, just an enthusiastic player/singer who appreciates what carbon fiber has to offer for acoustic guitarists.
to each its own.
This reminds me back in the day of laminate guitars.
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  #19  
Old 01-01-2013, 03:30 AM
ac ac is offline
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Don't be fooled by the David Wilcox video. He has at least three pick-ups in the guitar, including an internal mic, and he mics the guitar to boot.

He then uses an expensive preamp to precisely eq the sound of each pick-up, before running it through the P.A. system. So you have to take the live Youtube vidoes with a grain of salt. Listen to his most recent studio album, Open Hand, on which he used the Rainsong, to get a true idea of how the guitar sound acoustically.
FYI, there was no intent to "fool" anyone. I did an ultra quick search and chose a couple of videos by a professional who uses carbon fiber guitars, which is what the OP was asking for. I stated there were better videos out there, hoping he would do his own search and make up his own mind.

Everyone knows you listen to YouTube videos with a grain of salt. Still, if you listen to many and if you can find those where guitars are compared side by side with the same equipment, even YouTube videos can be very useful for someone with no access to the guitars.

I was just trying to help him get started, not trying to deceive. Sorry this made you defensive.

BTW, even though he does use amplification when he performs (hopefully not a big surprise to anyone), I believe the guitar does have "some" role to play in the sound he produces. It's not all smoke and mirrors as the focus of your comment seems to imply. There are a Rainsong owners that have mostly abandoned wood guitars for a reason.

And no, I do not own a Rainsong. I just wanted to be helpful.
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  #20  
Old 01-01-2013, 07:48 AM
Kindness Kindness is offline
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Originally Posted by cedarkoa599 View Post
to each its own.
This reminds me back in the day of laminate guitars.
The new technology in producing Carbon fiber guitars today is far from a laminate. Have you ever played a Rainsong, Emerald or Blackbird?
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  #21  
Old 01-01-2013, 09:38 AM
mchalebk mchalebk is offline
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Originally Posted by cedarkoa599 View Post
to each its own.
This reminds me back in the day of laminate guitars.
Care to elaborate? Do you have any experience with carbon fiber guitars?

Really can't see how laminate guitars can be compared to CF guitars, unless you're simply implying that they are inferior to solid wood guitars (which they're not).
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  #22  
Old 01-01-2013, 09:59 AM
Ed422 Ed422 is offline
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Originally Posted by mchalebk View Post
Care to elaborate? Do you have any experience with carbon fiber guitars?

Really can't see how laminate guitars can be compared to CF guitars, unless you're simply implying that they are inferior to solid wood guitars (which they're not).
It is similar in that they are presented as the same or a substitute for all wood guitars (which they are not). They are an alternative, but don't take the place of solid wood guitars.

Ed
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  #23  
Old 01-01-2013, 10:09 AM
rmyAddison rmyAddison is offline
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To each their own..............

Wood sounds like wood and Carbon FIber sounds like Carbon Fiber, and that's based on the laws of physics and the acoustical properties of different materials.

Carbob Fiber certainly has it's place, and some sound pretty good, but they don't sound like seasoned wood, they just don't. For weather considerations and durability they have a place no doubt.

David Wilcox (seen him a bunch) can make anything sound good, and he has an extremely sophisticated amplification system with multi sources, Parasound used to do custom rigs for him. Seen him with carbon and seem him with wood, I'll take the Olson sound by a mile..............
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  #24  
Old 01-01-2013, 10:12 AM
mchalebk mchalebk is offline
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Originally Posted by Ed422 View Post
It is similar in that they are presented as the same or a substitute for all wood guitars (which they are not). They are an alternative, but don't take the place of solid wood guitars.

Ed
I disagree that CF guitars are presented as the "same or a substitute for all wood guitars". I can't think of anyone who has suggested anything remotely close to this. What they are is a viable alternative that has many advantages over wood. (Of course, most guitarists don't think the advantages are worth the compromises they feel they have to settle for if they gave up wood for CF.)

I still don't see how you can compare laminate construction to CF construction. Yes, both are alternatives to all wood guitars. However, the similarities pretty much end there. In most cases, laminates allow a guitar to be made cheaper. I doubt many people would suggest that CF is cheaper than wood. Other than cost, laminate construction has few advantages over all wood construction. CF construction, however, has many advantages (or else none of us would be buying them). As to whether these advantages outweigh the tradition and beauty of wood is a purely personal matter.
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  #25  
Old 01-01-2013, 10:16 AM
mchalebk mchalebk is offline
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Originally Posted by rmyAddison View Post
To each their own..............

Wood sounds like wood and Carbon FIber sounds like Carbon Fiber, and that's based on the laws of physics and the acoustical properties of different materials.

Carbob Fiber certainly has it's place, and some sound pretty good, but they don't sound like seasoned wood, they just don't. For weather considerations and durability they have a place no doubt.

David Wilcox (seen him a bunch) can make anything sound good, and he has an extremely sophisticated amplification system with multi sources, Parasound used to do custom rigs for him. Seen him with carbon and seem him with wood, I'll take the Olson sound by a mile..............
Rich, have you ever had a chance to play or hear a CA vintage voiced Legacy (or Vintage Performer; same guitar)? Don't get me wrong, it doesn't sound as good as a D-18GE (but how many guitars do?), but I would be shocked if more than 1 or 2 guitarists in 100 could tell you it was made of CF in a blind listening test.

CF construction is about more than having a durable guitar that is virtually impervious to environmental issues.
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  #26  
Old 01-01-2013, 10:39 AM
Ed422 Ed422 is offline
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Originally Posted by mchalebk View Post
I disagree that CF guitars are presented as the "same or a substitute for all wood guitars". I can't think of anyone who has suggested anything remotely close to this. What they are is a viable alternative that has many advantages over wood. (Of course, most guitarists don't think the advantages are worth the compromises they feel they have to settle for if they gave up wood for CF.)

I still don't see how you can compare laminate construction to CF construction. Yes, both are alternatives to all wood guitars. However, the similarities pretty much end there. In most cases, laminates allow a guitar to be made cheaper. I doubt many people would suggest that CF is cheaper than wood. Other than cost, laminate construction has few advantages over all wood construction. CF construction, however, has many advantages (or else none of us would be buying them). As to whether these advantages outweigh the tradition and beauty of wood is a purely personal matter.
Hmmm.... layers of carbon fiber held together with layers of resin, layers of wood veneer held together with glue, layers of phenol pressed together and heated to activate glue between the laminations (HPL). They all seem very similar to me. I don't see how it is possible to not see the similarities.

It is a personal matter... none of the advantages have to do with how it sounds. It is all about how it is possible to be less careful with the guitar. It's possible to play them in the rain. To each their own, when it rains, I'm going inside. I am interested... I continue trying them.

Ed
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  #27  
Old 01-01-2013, 10:48 AM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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I actually think of my wood guitars as alternatives to my Carbon ones?
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  #28  
Old 01-01-2013, 11:02 AM
mchalebk mchalebk is offline
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Originally Posted by Ed422 View Post
Hmmm.... layers of carbon fiber held together with layers of resin, layers of wood veneer held together with glue, layers of phenol pressed together and heated to activate glue between the laminations (HPL). They all seem very similar to me. I don't see how it is possible to not see the similarities.
When I compare different guitars, I don’t think one bit about how they were constructed. The use of laminates in wood guitars is (usually) simply to make them more affordable. The reasons for using carbon fiber are so different, and the results so different, when someone compares the two (especially without providing any reason for the comparison), I have to assume that they think that CF guitars are inferior to wood guitars, just as laminate guitars are generally inferior to all wood guitars. I would disagree with this conclusion (that CF is inferior to all wood construction, if that was what was intended).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed422 View Post
It is a personal matter... none of the advantages have to do with how it sounds. It is all about how it is possible to be less careful with the guitar. It's possible to play them in the rain. To each their own, when it rains, I'm going inside. I am interested... I continue trying them.
For my tastes, I actually agree that the advantages don’t have anything to do with how the guitars sound. I don’t buy CF because I prefer the sound to wood. I buy CF guitars because at least some of them sound plenty good enough and I just got tired of dealing with environmental issues. It is important to note that the guitars do have to sound good (to my ear), or I wouldn’t buy them.

Some people would argue this point with you. Some have grown to love the crystalline sound of some of the CF guitars to the point where they feel that wood guitars sound muffled and muddy. To them, they believe CF guitars actually sound better than wood. I’m not in that group of people, but my 6-string CF guitars are all made by CA, the lone CF manufacturer that tries to emulate the sound of wood guitars. I understand their point, though. And I think they would agree with your statement that it’s a “personal matter”.
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  #29  
Old 01-01-2013, 11:34 AM
Kindness Kindness is offline
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Originally Posted by Ed422 View Post
Hmmm.... layers of carbon fiber held together with layers of resin, layers of wood veneer held together with glue, layers of phenol pressed together and heated to activate glue between the laminations (HPL). They all seem very similar to me. I don't see how it is possible to not see the similarities.

It is a personal matter... none of the advantages have to do with how it sounds. It is all about how it is possible to be less careful with the guitar. It's possible to play them in the rain. To each their own, when it rains, I'm going inside. I am interested... I continue trying them.

Ed
I did not buy my Rainsong so I can play in the rain. I purchased it first based on its incredible sound, secondly for durability for travel.
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  #30  
Old 01-01-2013, 11:48 AM
Ted @ LA Guitar Sales Ted @ LA Guitar Sales is offline
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To each their own..............


....David Wilcox (seen him a bunch) can make anything sound good, and he has an extremely sophisticated amplification system with multi sources, Parasound used to do custom rigs for him. Seen him with carbon and seem him with wood, I'll take the Olson sound by a mile..............
I have also seen/heard David, it was a very intimate setting where both guitars were unplugged and the Rainsong Jumbo had more presence and clarity which worked really well with his style.

I know you have a wonderful collection of Martins Rich and you are partial to the Martin tone, so do I and so am I, but in my opinion the Rainsong Jumbo just might be a better "tool" for David than the Olson.

But as you said, to each his own.

Happy new year everyone!
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