Installing Frets ?

[wildbill1962]

Do you prefer to install your Frets before or after gluing fretboard to the neck ?

Thanks
Bill

[charles Tauber]

You'll get answers for before and after. Neither is right or wrong. It boils down to personal preference and what building sequence one prefers.

I've done it both ways. These days I prefer to install frets only after the entire instrument is assembled, plus or minus the bridge. That way, the fingerboard can be levelled just prior to installing the frets, countering any bumps/hollows that occur during various previous assembly steps.

The downside to installing frets earlier in the sequence can be that the fretboard isn't true, giving uneven frets.

An additional possible downside to installing frets prior to attaching the fingerboard to the neck is that, depending upon how it is done, there is a minimal possibility of splitting the fingerboard.

[phavriluk]

Everybody who installs frets has his/her own workflow that works for them. Some do one, some do the other. We all have tried both and settled on a technique that makes the most sense to that person.

[wildbill1962]

Thanks guys, I have read articles on doing it both way and everything in between. But since this is my first build, i wanted to see how you pro,s do it. Kinda leaning towards installing the frets after I glue the fretboard on. But nothing set in stone yet.

I have the body built, and have just started fitting the neck, and getting the dovetail and neck angle correctly done.

This has been alot of fun, aggravation, frustration and joy all mixed together. But having a heck of a good time

[Bruce Sexauer]

Before is the factory way, and can work if your design and process are perfectly defined and repeatable. I build an ongoing stream of one offs, and cannot see how to get a perfect playing surface unless it is created after the neck goes on and before the frets go in.

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by wildbill1962

Do you prefer to install your Frets before or after gluing fretboard to the neck ?

Manufacturers typically fret them before fitting this allows a faster system. The downside is you get a common phenomenon called fallaway, this is where the fretboard is pulled down to the body during glue up, so frets are straight to the the 14th and then kind of fallaway from the string line from 15-21 etc

I personally fit the board before fretting it, this allows me to pull the board down over the body, then sand it dead flat and recut the slots if necessary and fret it up, IMO it gives a better end result but is more time consuming

Steve

[Robin, Wales]

I am not a luthier but I do follow/research the building process with interest. I have noticed how most manufacturers install the frets before mounting the board on the neck (including Martin). But I thought that this video from Santa Cruz, without being its specific intention, shows why there may be an advantage in installing the frets after mounting the board on the neck.

https://santacruzguitar.com/scgc-and-the-plek-machine/

The video itself covers their use of the PLEK machine - getting the machine to shape the board before installing the frets and then to level/crown the frets, cut the nut and cut the bridge. I have not found, so far, any other manufacturer that uses the full scope of the machine in this way? Most seem to simply run a post fret installation fret crown through the machine, which may be why we see set-up complaints on AGF from new guitar owners who instruments have come from major manufacturers with a PLEK label.

Anyway, I thought that from the context of fretting before or after mounting the board that this look at Santa Cruz use of a PLEK machine may give an interesting perspective.

[charles Tauber]

I found the video interesting in the same way as watching any CNC automated machinery being employed to manufacture things that have previously been manufactured by more traditional approaches. If one is mass-producing an object, I can certainly see wanting to employ technology to automate processes to eliminate repetitive manual motions and those that require highly-trained labour to perform. I can see the attractiveness of it in a high-production environment. As repeated in the video, one of the traditional arguments for automating certain tasks is to free craftspeople from manual menial tasks to allow them to work on more creative aspects of the manufacturing process.

There is also the attraction in modern mass-production of performing actions in a quantitative, rather than qualitative, way. Being able to quantify manufacturing processes - or more specifically, their output - allows modern statistical process controls to be applied that reduce variation in the finished product. The quantification of results can also allow accurate repetition of specific preferences. Lots of good reasons to quantify one's manufacturing methods. And, lots of good reasons to bring modern manufacturing methods into the production of consumer goods of any kind, including guitars.

In contrast to that is a more traditional approach, typified by the imagery of a Geippetto-like grey-haired figure working away at a workbench with a few hand tools. Historically, those skilled in traditional work methods have produced work of the highest levels of quality, but, generally, not in the quantities typical of modern mass production of consumer goods.

From a purely academic perspective, it would seem that the old-world craftsperson is largely irrelevant to a modern world of mass-produced consumer goods, where larger quantities, faster, cheaper is what is most often desired.

Sorry for the divergence of the original topic of fretting before vs. after attaching a fingerboard. In the Santa Cruz sequence, using a PLEK machine, their answer is "after".

[wildbill1962]

Thanks for sharing all of your great wisdom and advice Gentlemen. I really appreciate it.

I'm think I will attach the fretboard on the neck before installing the frets.

Have a great day !
Bill

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

I found the video interesting in the same way as watching any CNC automated machinery being employed to manufacture things that have previously been manufactured by more traditional approaches. If one is mass-producing an object, I can certainly see wanting to employ technology to automate processes to eliminate repetitive manual motions and those that require highly-trained labour to perform. I can see the attractiveness of it in a high-production environment. As repeated in the video, one of the traditional arguments for automating certain tasks is to free craftspeople from manual menial tasks to allow them to work on more creative aspects of the manufacturing process.

There is also the attraction in modern mass-production of performing actions in a quantitative, rather than qualitative, way. Being able to quantify manufacturing processes - or more specifically, their output - allows modern statistical process controls to be applied that reduce variation in the finished product. The quantification of results can also allow accurate repetition of specific preferences. Lots of good reasons to quantify one's manufacturing methods. And, lots of good reasons to bring modern manufacturing methods into the production of consumer goods of any kind, including guitars.

In contrast to that is a more traditional approach, typified by the imagery of a Geippetto-like grey-haired figure working away at a workbench with a few hand tools. Historically, those skilled in traditional work methods have produced work of the highest levels of quality, but, generally, not in the quantities typical of modern mass production of consumer goods.

From a purely academic perspective, it would seem that the old-world craftsperson is largely irrelevant to a modern world of mass-produced consumer goods, where larger quantities, faster, cheaper is what is most often desired.

Sorry for the divergence of the original topic of fretting before vs. after attaching a fingerboard. In the Santa Cruz sequence, using a PLEK machine, their answer is "after".

That's a lovely post Charles. If you have 30 mins to spare with a glass of wine in your hand then I'm sure that you would appreciate this craftsman making a citera with only hand tools:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy5uu2puVrA&t=35s

[MC5C]

I make archtop necks with the neck extension under the fretboard. My typical sequence is slot the fretboard, taper it on a table saw, add purfling if any, install on the uncarved neck blank, radius and flatten it, resaw the slots to depth, including the purfling, add the binding and scrape level, install the frets, carve the neck and finalize it for installation (spray finish, to the headstock, etc). Last step is to level the frets, dress, crown, polish. I always wonder if I would have better results if I leveled and radiused the fretboard, after I carve the neck, and then install frets, etc, the question being will the neck move after I carve it? So far it seems to stay straight and I don't worry about denting the back of the neck as I hammer on the frets.

[Alan Carruth]

I'm with Charles and Bruce; after.

Manufacturers automate to save time, which is their most expensive input. I remember Bob Taylor talking about throwing out a batch of necks that got an extra coat of finish, and would not fit the neck pockets. All of the material and embodied labor in them was not worth as much as the man hours it would take to get them to fit.

In his book 'The Perfectionists' (originally entitled 'Precision') Woodward talks about the advances in precision in manufacturing since 1763. There's a chapter contrasting Henry Royce (the engineer of Roll-Royce) and Henry Ford in the 20s. Royce's factory made two cars per week. All parts were filed to fit perfectly, but they were not interchangeable between cars. Ford used precision measuring tools, such as Johansson blocks, to make sure that his parts were within a certain tolerance, so that they could be interchanged, and absolutely forbade filing. The fit was sloppy, but he was able to make one every forty seconds (with a lot more workers), and make them affordable too.

One of the preconditions for that sort of production is consistent materials. Even with good visual grading there is a lot of mechanical variation in wood, and when you make parts to a standard size that translates into variability of sound in guitars. That works well for a manufacturer, since there is a wide range of tastes relative to sound, and they can satisfy that range with a few standard models so long as people take the time search out the sound they want. Most custom makers are given a desired sound to work toward, and try to wrap a box around it. Freedom to vary materials, methods and even design features, facilitates achieving it, to the extent that's possible.

I suspect that a larger percentage of Royce's 'Silver Ghosts' are still workable than Ford's Model Ts. Luthiers aspire to that distinction as well. In a world of dwindling resources that's something to consider.

[redir]

And then Edward Deming took that to the next step with his quality assurance theories in manufacturing. American companies were satisfied with poorly fitting parts in their manufacturing processes so he went to Japan where they adopted his theories and Rose to the top in manufacturing.

But I digress.