Twins Anyone? Tonewood Comparisons

[justonwo]

If any of you out there in luthier-built land have twins, please post them here.

The endless tonewood debate will be settled here today.

I happen to have two sets of guitars that are pretty close to being twins and thought it would be fun to try parsing out the differences.

The first video is of two Brondel A-2c guitars. One is Adirondack spruce and mahogany. The other is Carpathian spruce and Madagascar rosewood.



The second video is two Circa OMs. Both with red spruce tops, pyramid bridges, and built one serial number apart. One with Brazilian rosewood back and sides and the other with mahogany.

[cigarfan]

Certainly puts that to rest once and for all!

Four fantastic guit fiddles. Nice playing! Who could ask for more!

[ChuckS]

That was enjoyable Juston. Thanks for the comparisons. Maybe you should send these guitars around to members to do the same comparison, kind of like a luthier's road trip guitar. Do you still have my address?

[runamuck]

I challenge you to make recordings of these guitars - no video - and without labeling which is which, ask people to guess.

[Bill Kraus]

Great video, and very fun to listen to. Four guitars that sound fantastic and yet,, very different and it would be hard to make a choice as to which I would choose as a favorite.
It has been on my to do list for a few years to build guitars with consecutive cut sets as a comparison. I have sets of a few different species of rosewood as well as multiple sets of mahogany that were cut from lumber allowing for a very controlled, consecutive cut comparisons. The plan is to use these matching back and side sets, along with neck stock from the same billet, and brace stock from the same billet, to make matching guitars with the top wood as the main variable. The idea being to compare the differences of top wood species while all else remains as identical as possible. I would like to do this to test back and side differences also, but I lack consecutive top sets.
Thanks for the wonderful video, keep them coming please.

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by Bill Kraus

Great video, and very fun to listen to. Four guitars that sound fantastic and yet,, very different and it would be hard to make a choice as to which I would choose as a favorite.
It has been on my to do list for a few years to build guitars with consecutive cut sets as a comparison. I have sets of a few different species of rosewood as well as multiple sets of mahogany that were cut from lumber allowing for a very controlled, consecutive cut comparisons. The plan is to use these matching back and side sets, along with neck stock from the same billet, and brace stock from the same billet, to make matching guitars with the top wood as the main variable. The idea being to compare the differences of top wood species while all else remains as identical as possible. I would like to do this to test back and side differences also, but I lack consecutive top sets.
Thanks for the wonderful video, keep them coming please.

That would be super cool. Look forward to watching that project come to life!

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by cigarfan

Certainly puts that to rest once and for all!

Four fantastic guit fiddles. Nice playing! Who could ask for more!

Well, one just needs a cigar and some time with cigarfan to smoke it. That would be my only additional ask!

Originally Posted by ChuckS

That was enjoyable Juston. Thanks for the comparisons. Maybe you should send these guitars around to members to do the same comparison, kind of like a luthier's road trip guitar. Do you still have my address?

I agree. Do you want all four at once? Maybe better to send them all on a pallet via freight?

Originally Posted by runamuck

I challenge you to make recordings of these guitars - no video - and without labeling which is which, ask people to guess.

Close your eyes and guess.

[Alan Carruth]

"The endless tonewood debate will be settled here today."

No.

Aside from all of the issues involved with recordings those were not 'blind' tests. Too many variables. And even then...

I've made several 'matched pairs', using flitch matched tops and B&S sets, and building them carefully so that they'd be as 'alike' as possible, Every time around I've gotten closer, but I've never been able to make a pair that sounded 'the same' in blind tests yet. Without going into it too much I'll say that I'm pretty well convinced that it's not possible. I'll keep trying, though.

It's too bad, really. If it were possible to make 'identical' guitars that sounded 'the same' then you could settle some of the debates because you could actually change just one variable at a time. As it is,I don't see how we can ever do that. The only other way is to make lots of guitars very carefully using wood with known properties,do lots of listening and playing tests, and analyze everything statistically. No individual can make enough guitars with enough control. You'd need the resources of Taylor or Martin, and a lot of time to get all the measurements. It would be expensive. Martin and Taylor would not bother, since they would not learn anything that would do them any good, so I doubt we'll ever see it.

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

"The endless tonewood debate will be settled here today."

No.

Aside from all of the issues involved with recordings those were not 'blind' tests. Too many variables. And even then...

I've made several 'matched pairs', using flitch matched tops and B&S sets, and building them carefully so that they'd be as 'alike' as possible, Every time around I've gotten closer, but I've never been able to make a pair that sounded 'the same' in blind tests yet. Without going into it too much I'll say that I'm pretty well convinced that it's not possible. I'll keep trying, though.

It's too bad, really. If it were possible to make 'identical' guitars that sounded 'the same' then you could settle some of the debates because you could actually change just one variable at a time. As it is,I don't see how we can ever do that. The only other way is to make lots of guitars very carefully using wood with known properties,do lots of listening and playing tests, and analyze everything statistically. No individual can make enough guitars with enough control. You'd need the resources of Taylor or Martin, and a lot of time to get all the measurements. It would be expensive. Martin and Taylor would not bother, since they would not learn anything that would do them any good, so I doubt we'll ever see it.

Alan, it's sarcasm. Obviously, this settles nothing. It's an impossible argument. As tiresome as these videos are, perhaps, it is equally tiresome getting the knee-jerk response about how the experiments aren't scientifically valid or controlled. I know that. This is fun . . . I do enough science all the other hours of the day.

[jmagill]

This certainly is fun, and the disclaimers are noted, but here are a few obvious points to just keep in mind, even for an unscientific exercise:

– Organic materials are variable, so there are no two "identical" of anything made from them.

– As experienced luthier Alan Carruth points out, getting even "near-identical" guitars may not be possible, and he's certainly tried.

– To hear any real difference between two rosewood and mahogany guitars, you'd have to try one, then remove the top, install it on the other, then try the second one. Anyone up for that?

– Most importantly, these are comparisons of video clips, recorded with mikes out front, and say little about what the actual guitars would sound like if you had them in your lap playing them, with your ears above them facing forward.

Just sayin'...

[jmat]

I would like to join in but lack the recording ________ [fill in the blank: equipment, know how, space, posting accounts, ... ]. If I get any of that worked out I will (too definitive? might? could? won't?) compare a Pernambuco/Engelmann Brondel with a Brazilian/Carpathian Brondel. Both are 12 fret B2c models. They are certainly very different, perhaps best described as lush vs. elegant respectively.

Thanks for posting. As far as I could tell given _______ [enter caveat: head phone quality, hunger level, attention span, ...] I liked the rosewood better on the Brondels and the Mahogany better on the Circa. This experiment controlled for posture, twelve hour carbohydrate intake and family tendency toward nearsightedness.

[TomB'sox]

Thanks for taking the time to do that. I thought it was fun and I do indeed hear differences along the lines of what common thought thinks it to be.

I also got the humor and sarcasm aspect and would like to say, I am 100% convinced of the differences now and no one could ever convince me otherwise. I have Justonwo to thank for it.

[bho]

Hi,

What I found most interesting about this tonewood comparison was not the differences between the tonewoods, but how similar the guitars from each builder sound regardless of what tonewood they used.

Both Brondels had substantial overtones and bright trebles.

Both Circas had note clarity and warm trebles.

All four guitars sounded great.

Thanks.

[TomB'sox]

This may add to the comparison, at least I hope. These two guitars are the exact same model and were built back to back with the same bracing, bracing pattern, deflections etc.

They are slightly more different in woods as one is BRW and Redwood while the other is Sapele (in the Mahogany family) and often used as a Mahogany substitute with Sitka. From the wood database: "Sapele is a commonly exported and economically important African wood species. It’s sold both in lumber and veneer form. It is occasionally used as a substitute for Genuine Mahogany, and is sometimes referred to as “Sapele Mahogany.” Technically, the two genera that are commonly associated with mahogany are Swietenia and Khaya, while Sapele is in the Entandrophragma genus, but all three are included in the broader Meliaceae family, so comparisons to true mahogany may not be too far fetched."

The differences are even more apparent to me in this video, but of course there are the tops involved also.

If you think it muddies the waters rather than help, I will remove the post, but I think it helps as I hear the typical characteristics we tend to think of with these woods better.

[Rwpierce]

Thanks for the really cool post Juston of 4 guitars from two of your favorite builders. Guitars sound awesome and the playing is really good.