Fan Frets/Compound radius and 1 13/16 nut Custom shop guitar

[alexander1356]

Hello guitar friends,

I am making plans for my future 12 fret SJ custom shop guitar and I am stuck with few dimenzion questions, so hopefully you can help. It will be swiss army knife guitar and used apr. like this:

- the guitar will be 60% of time in Dadgad, 20% in standard, 20% other drop tunings
- 60 to 70% for fingerstyle and about 30 to 40% flat picking and strumming

FAN FRETS: my guitar idols Michael Watts, Martin Tallstrom, Martin Simpson, Al Di Meola or Mike Dawes don't use fan frets. Now I heard that Dadgad already have some big stretches, so fan frets might make situation worse if you don't get it with proper geometry. Mybe thats why my idols don't use fan frets? First I wanted to go with 25-26'' fan, but mybe the 25.4'' to 26.125'' might be better like seen on Greenfield G2? Whats your opinion about fan frets for these needs and why they don't use it.

COMPOUND RADIUS: another tricky question. Since guitar will be used like a swiss army knife, I am not sure if going with 16'' radius is best or compound 12-16'' would be better? What I would gain with compound 12-16'' configuration?

NUT 1 13/16'': I first had idea to go with 1 ¾'' nut, but due to my classical guitar past, I feel 1 13/16'' nut width would be better. Bridge spacing will be apr. 2 ¼ '' or more. Anyone who tried both and didn't like 1 13/16'' and why not?

Oh and there is also slotted headstock question but mybe for large SJ guitar standard is better looking...

I hope to hear some thoughts. Cheers

[Bruce Sexauer]

Talk to your builder.

[soma5]

Bruce is absolutely right. Talk to your builder; there is no substitute for that.

I will give you my experience. This is of course part and parcel of why we frequent this forum.

I have one guitar with fanned frets. By any measure (except that one, for me), it is a superlative guitar. There are some pieces I can't play well on it because it forces my wrist to turn one way or the other to get the fingerings to work out. I have other guitars I can play these pieces on.

I don't believe that for me a fanned fret guitar could ever be my Swiss Army Knife guitar. Mine is an incredible instrument for any piece I can deliver on it. The key word is "deliver". I am thinking hard about a non-fanned-fret sibling for that guitar.

[Guitars44me]

If you play slide, the FF will be a difficulty….

In standard tuning, When I play barre chords I find my index wants to go over the fret on the big E.
FF would be even worse for that, as the frets slant back to the nut on the bass side. So I have skipped the FF on my custom builds.

YMMV…

Again, talk to YOUR builder. Are you well acquainted? If not, give him as much info on what you do and hope to do as possibly ASAP

Have Fun with the build

Paul

[justonwo]

If you do the fan fret thing, I’d make sure you’re going with a builder that does a lot of them. Having the bridge at that funky angle means you have to adjust how you think about building and voicing the guitar. I would really want a fan fret specialist if I was going that route.

That being said, they are cool but largely unnecessary in my experience. I have played a number of them and owned one about 12 years ago. In theory, they are advertised as guitars with a better drop tuning bass response and sweeter highs. In practice, I have found that I can get really great bass response on guitars without a fan fret. My Brondel A2c is a great example. Standard 25.6” guitar with a really crisp bass that loves open D and C.

My Mustapick fan fret was a great guitar, but no better at lowered tunings than many other guitars I have owned.

Nut width is very personal and no one can really decide that for you. Even your builder is going to have a hard time telling you what is right. I happen to find 1 3/4” more than adequate for fingerstyle. But if you’re used to classical, the 1 13/16” should feel fine by comparison. I prefer 2 5/16” at the bridge by far. I play with fingerpicks and need the extra room to get between the strings.

Have fun.

[alexander1356]

I appreciate all the comments very much, Thank you.

YES, I'll need to talk with the builder ASAP, but I just wanted to hear some opinions from player perspective as well.

The guitar in question can have a bit boomy basses, so I thought fan fret can make them more snappy and focused for DadGad.

For the nut 1 ¾'' might actualy be better since besides the fingerpicking, I will also play with the pick and strumming and 1 13/16 might feel wide for that.

Any opinion if 12-16'' Compound radius is good idea instead of Martin style 16'' ?

Cheers

[tadol]

I have a guitar thats pretty much everything you’ve mentioned. The simple questions - slightly wider spacing at the nut and saddle are wonderful if you like that. But, there are an awful lot of people who really like 1-11/16”, which I find almost unplayable. It also has alot to do with the shape and thickness of the neck, so you really need to try a bunch of different guitars and see how well you like the width, shape, and thickness as a combination. Where this gets a little tricky is adding the fretboard radius to the combination -

Fan frets are cool - but they do introduce some problems as well. There are 2 critical things to think about with them - the total difference in scale lengths, and where that difference is expressed, or where you put the “zero” fret, the one thats perfectly perpendicular to the fretboard centerline. Too great a difference in scales, and you can have some real fingering problems, and string tension differences, and note bending. Too small, and why bother? Bruce Sexauer built mine with essentially Martin long scale on the bass side, and Martin short scale on the treble. Works fantastic. But then you need to place that “zero” fret. If it’s the nut, then all your difference is at the bridge, with some substantial bracing changes, and your natural hand placement is going to feel some real tension differences - but you won’t have any real issues with capoing. Put the zero at the bridge, your guitars body, bracing, and your picking hand will feel like its playing a normal guitar, but you might have to make some real adjustments with first position chords. And capoing could be a serious challenge. So putting the zero fret somewhere up the neck - 3rd, 5th, or even up to the 12th fret - reduces those issues at both ends.

For many builders, adjusting those parameters can be a real challenge. They may have worked out a specific plan that they want to work from. So, while I’d say play as many different fan frets as you can to feel the differences, you may not have the options to adjust all those things with the builder you’ve chosen.

As far as your idols not playing fan frets - many of them probably have tried them, or even own one (or more), but that doesn’t mean they perform with one - just like many others, they may not take their “best” guitars to travel with and play out. They have to deal with airlines, too! Or, they may not find the fan frets enough of an “advantage” to switch to only playing them. A really good fan fret is not going to be that substantially better than a really good standard from a top-tier solo builder or small shop. I love my fan-fret Sexauer, but it certainly isn’t any better than one of my “standard” Sexauers. Its different - in a good way.

As far as fixing “boomy” bass - a fan-fret may make it worse. If the builder can’t get a tight or focused bass on a standard build, don’t think a fan-fret is going to fix anything -

[Wolfram]

Originally Posted by Guitars44me

If you play slide, the FF will be a difficulty….

I beg to differ! I have three fan-fret acoustics and play slide on all of them. It does require a little adjustment, but actually the way the fan of the frets follows the natural sweep of your slide arm means that it very quickly feels completely natural.

Two of mine are 25.25" - 26" and one is 25" - 26". I find those essentially transparent to play, and have not had any problems with chord shapes or stretches - as a rule, a fan-fret guitar 'plays' a lot more like the shorter treble scale than the longer bass. One often-overlooked but very important parameter is the position of the perpendicular fret - this really does have a big effect on how the guitar feels. Mine are all around the 6th or 7th fret - the thinking was to position the perpendicular fret around the location I play most frequently.

One of those fan-fret guitars is my go-to; it gets around 90% of my play time, so yes, a fan-fret can indeed be your Swiss army guitar!

Cheers,
David

[Wolfram]

Also worth mentioning that Martin Simpson does indeed play a fan-fret guitar - his lovely Taran Tirga Mhor. https://www.taranguitars.co.uk/martin-simpson

[Guitars44me]

Well, if it works for Martin Simpson, and David Wolfram, I stand corrected.

Carry on and have fun

Paul

[BlackKeys36]

Your builder will be able to relay the details, but something to keep in mind...a FF guitar will have a wider nut in order to accomplish 1.75" across the fretboard at the nut (90 deg to the fingerboard). My Wilborn Nautilus is approximately 1-13/16" across the nut but only effectively the same width neck as a 1.75" guitar because the nut is angled. Another thing that I'm sure you've considered is that not all FF are created equal from the perspective of it affecting your playing. My Wilborn only has a half inch difference in scale length from low E to high E (24.9-25.4) and no one even notices it is a fan fret unless I tell them. I believe the lowden default is about an inch and I can definitely tell a difference but it doesn't affect my playing much.

My understanding from videos i've watched where some of your idols discussed this is that where it most affects things is advanced techniques like pinch or slap harmonics where you need to quickly be precise with your right hand directly on top of a fret. If those players had always played a FF with the same scale lengths and their muscle memory took them to the correct spots it may be less of an issue, but I'm guessing they all learned on a single scale lengthed guitar and the multiscale forces real-time adjustment.

Good luck in your search!

[alexander1356]

Thank you everyone again for all the comments! Very helpfull. And great photo of Martin Simpson. I am glad he plays Fan fret.

SO, any thoughts about 12-16'' Compound radius pros and cons in comparison to Martin style 16'' ?

Cheers