Custom top suggestion

rschultz · #1 02-21-2022, 10:27 PM

Hi

I had a custom built 9 years ago (Jaffrey, see sig), great guitar. Beautiful, sounds great. It’s a x14 size spruce/Malaysian Blackwood (ebony), with a K&k/mag. Along with that I have a Taylor 714 (es2). I use them to lead music at my church., in a small band; I strum and fingerpick. The Taylor is a nice guitar but it lacks something the Jaffrey has… not sure. I think the dual pickups give it something the es2 doesn’t. Dynamics, feel, sustain, not sure.

Lately I’ve been thinking of selling the 714 and getting another custom. I was thinking about a redwood top, but there are a lot of threads on here that are Leary of them, they look great but can be inconsistent sound wise.

So I’m not sure if I want a cedar or another spruce. I think I need the headroom Of a spruce, but would like the warmth of cedar for when I fingerpick. Are there cedar varieties that strum close to spruce? Or spruce varieties that can be warm to the tough during picking?

Thanks!

vpolineni · #2 02-21-2022, 11:14 PM

The inconsistency you mention is typically related to sinker redwood. Redwood fits your description as well (warmth of cedar with headroom closer to that of spruce) so a non-sinker redwood would be my suggestion to you.

Tim McKnight · #3 02-22-2022, 08:45 AM

Redwood stiffness can be all over the map due to inconsistencies within the species and also to the way each top was split and or cut. A redwood top that is a few degrees off of vertical cut can be extremely weak and floppy while another identically cut top can be really stiff. Its just the variation within the species. A luthier that has experience using redwood and also has an inventory of Redwood on hand would be your best bet. If your luthier doesn't have any Redwood on hand then he or she is at the mercy of the wood vendor sending them the top that would fit their / your needs.

The way we fit a player starts with choosing a top first based on your individual and unique string attack. Then a few choices of top species can be discussed to narrow the search. Its in the luthiers hands to choose the appropriate top from their inventory, thickness the top appropriately, brace and finally voice the top to meet your tonal and responsiveness requirements.

alohachris · #4 02-22-2022, 05:20 PM

Aloha rschultz,

How ya been?

If you're thinking about Redwood tops for a steel string acoustic guitar, then please keep in mind all of the issues with that species mentioned by Tim above.

Redwood is a gorgeous & excellent tonewood for classical guitars, IMO. But if you are leading Church music, the chances are that you are strumming an acoustic guitar a lot, right? And Redwood does not stand up well to strumming, flatpicks, or flatpicking. Redwood is generally softer & weaker than spruce or cedar (not by much), & can be easily be scratched & abraded all over your nice top by fingers & picks. It can also be over-driven more easily by strumming loudly than spruce or cedar.

Redwood also really does not like to be dinged either. If you turned at a gig & hit, say a mic stand errantly, that ding could quickly & easily turn into a moving crack under string pressure. And most luthiers have stories they don't like to tell about how easily Redwood can crack in a shop.

I know the guys swear by Sinker Redwood as being another, tougher animal than regular Redwood. But, it's still Redwood. And as Tim reminds us, how Redwood is split & how well quartered it is can make a huge difference in strength & tone.

Redwood does not travel very well either for giggers. But it sure looks great, huh? And it can sound great too. However, I love it for classical players but not for steel-string guitars as a rule. Or for the many collectors who don't play that often & keep guitars in a display case.

If you are considering collaborating on a new custom acoustic guitar, then you should look at some of the many varieties of White Spruces available from different parts of the world.

I prefer real German Spruce (yes, it is still available) from a small area of Bavaria & also from a mill in the Black Forest in Baden-Wurttemburg. And if you really want something special, find an experienced, accomplished luthier who has a large stash of very dense Hawaiian curly acacia Koa (like Kailua's Rollo Scheurenbrand - https://www.koaguitars.com - & put a German or Italian (from the Dolomites) Spruce top over it.

Good luck with your project, rschultz.

alohachris

rschultz · #5 02-22-2022, 06:20 PM

So you’re saying it’s softer than even cedar? And handles strumming worse than cedar? I always thought it would be somewhere in between spruce/cedar. Interesting.

Taylor has a couple lines of sinker topped guitars. 414, 714, 914. Do your impressions hold for those too?

As for my playing style, I rarely use a pick. Finger strum and finger pick 98% of the time. It allows me to go back and forth between the two with minimal volume change. Picks are louder. I just gain my signal up a little more than if I was using a pick.

Thanks for the thoughts!

The Bard Rocks · #6 02-22-2022, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha rschultz,
...

Redwood is a gorgeous & excellent tonewood for classical guitars, IMO. But if you are leading Church music, the chances are that you are strumming an acoustic guitar a lot, right? And Redwood does not stand up well to strumming, flatpicks, or flatpicking. Redwood is generally softer & weaker than spruce or cedar (not by much), & can be easily be scratched & abraded all over your nice top by fingers & picks. It can also be over-driven more easily by strumming loudly than spruce or cedar.

Redwood also really does not like to be dinged either. If you turned at a gig & hit, say a mic stand errantly, that ding could quickly & easily turn into a moving crack under string pressure. And most luthiers have stories they don't like to tell about how easily Redwood can crack in a shop.

I know the guys swear by Sinker Redwood as being another, tougher animal than regular Redwood. But, it's still Redwood. And as Tim reminds us, how Redwood is split & how well quartered it is can make a huge difference in strength & tone.

Redwood does not travel very well either for giggers. But it sure looks great, huh? And it can sound great too. However, I love it for classical players but not for steel-string guitars as a rule. Or for the many collectors who don't play that often & keep guitars in a display case.

...

alohachris

I beg to differ. It is my understanding that redwood occupies the middle ground between the spruces and cedar. More warmth than spruce, less than cedar. Takes hard strumming better than cedar but not quite as well as spruce. And the one I have certainly fits that. I also understand that it is a bit like Koa in that it varies more than one might expect and that the skill of the builder is more important than usual.

Bruce Sexauer · #7 02-22-2022, 09:58 PM

I have built more WRC (25) than Redwood (6?) topped guitars, but do have a grip, I believe. While the woods look quite similar, they are very different. The cosmetic fragility ascribed a few posts back is WRC’s, not Redwood’s. While Redwood could be used for classical guitars, it is WRC that predominates there. Redwood is heavier (usually), and stiffer as well. It is difficult to overbuild with WRC, and easy to do so with Redwood. Some people like the sound of Redwood, others do not, compared to spruce, and I do fall in that camp. I would be willing to build with either material in the future, but probably not for myself.

Marcus Wong · #8 03-03-2022, 07:41 AM

If you can, try to play a Redwood topped instrument first. First and foremost is the luthier's capability to build a good guitar with Redwood, then it's the quality of the Redwood top you get. If the luthier is not confident with Redwood or hasn't built much with it, you might be safer going with a Cedar or Spruce.

I've played some Cedar guitars that responded surprisingly Spruce-like, notably those by Michel Pellerin of Pellerin Guitars. They have the kind of qualities I interpret you're after.

Alternatively, you could go with a softer Spruce like Engelmann spruce, which has some warmth, and ideal fingerstyle top wood imo. Or perhaps Port Orford Cedar which I prefer over Redwood, while still sitting in between Spruce & Cedar.

rschultz · #9 03-20-2022, 09:03 PM

Fwiw, today I stopped in to a local guitar shop (Open Chord, west Knoxville) and played a Taylor custom GA with a Redwood top and koa back/sides. A $9000 guitar (20% off!).

It was without hesitation the sweetest most responsive guitar I’ve ever played. Made the 3-4 other Taylors I played (all $3k+) sound dull in comparison. I was shocked. It had a very interesting and complex sound, and sustain for days. Too bad the price tag…

jklotz · #10 03-21-2022, 07:33 AM

I've played a grand total of 2 guitars with redwood tops. One was on loan from a respected builder, the other was a special run Taylor for gc that I bought and later returned. My take away was redwood is not for me. To my ears, there is a tubby quality to the tone that i didn't like. Make sure you spend some time with one before making the decision to commission one.

TomB'sox · #11 03-21-2022, 07:50 AM

I own several redwood guitars and it has become one of if not my favorite tops. It does indeed occupy the space between cedar and the spruces. The trebles are crystal in character and the bass is full and round. I do believe the builder is responsible for finding a good redwood top as they can be quite variable. I have a tunnel 14 redwood topped guitar that is simply outstanding. I am sure you will make your choice before Sept., but if not, come to B.I.G. and you can play them all and that may help you decide.