Luthiers: Thoughts on Pernambuco or Cocobolo for a Gypsy Guitar?

[iim7V7IM7]

AGF Luthiers,

I am in early discussions with a luthier (who does not participate here) on commissioning a grande bouche (D-hole) instrument. I am having this made mostly for jazz chord melody which includes a few Django pieces, but I do not play in that traditional gypsy style. He actually uses an x-bracing (his own take) instead of the traditional style of bracing used in these instruments so it will not be a traditional gypsy sounding piece but will fall between that and a flat top is some respects.

We discussed top woods and back/side woods. His stock model is made from EIR but we were discussing what I was looking for and he brought up both pernambuco and cocobolo as potential options with either a Adirondack spruce or German silver spruce as a top wood. I obviously will continue discussions directly with him to navigate these waters, but I know that Howard Klepper, Tim McNight and Bruce Sexauer have discussed pernambuco here extensively.

He explained that cocobolo was incredibly dense and that he thinned the pieces beyond what he does for EIR when making cocobolo bodies. from my reading (here) there don't seem to be many quartersawn guitar sets available so I need to find out where he got his. Also since the trees sound fairly small, is it a two piece set? I do have a couple questions to those of you who have worked with both materials

1) In words, sonic distinctions that come to mind between them?
2) Would Adirondack or German Spruce be a more synergistic match with either of these back/side woods?
3) With pernambuco (orange) and or cocobolo (deep reddish) what binding woods have you had aesthetic success with?
4) What questions might I ask him regarding the quality of the woods?

Thanks,

Bob

[Bruce Sexauer]

A great deal has been written here, much by myself, on the subject of Pernambuco, and you can find it easily. The tonal signatures of P and Cocobolo are barely comparable, with Coco being aggressive and hard, while P is clear and sweet, typically. I have used German 3 times for each of my 3 Adi P guitars, and haven't made a loser yet, couldn't say which is better. The one I am showing next week at Healsdburg is Adi, and no one is liable to say anything negative about its sound IMO.

I have built a number of induced arch flat top trapeze bridge guitars (Selmer/Macaferri is such) and played many more, including A Cocobolo/Adi Michael Dunn I owned for a while. Nearly all are exceptionally trebly guitars with a lot of agressive bite to the sound. The Dunn I had was way too edgy for me, but the guy who bought from me likes it, and Dunn himself reckoned it very successful. If I made one with your pair of choices, it would be P.

[iim7V7IM7]

Much Appreciated....

I think his pieces of pernambuco are smaller and he might need to make a 3-piece back. I don't think that he has wood sets like you use. He does have some nice sets of cocobolo through. As much as I like the idea of pernambuco acoustically, I suspect that there is pernambuco and there is PERNAMBUCO.

With cocobolo being so dense/stiff, what is your experience with the impact on sound by matching it with more flexible Sitka vs. more stiff Adirondack for example? His gypsy guitars are not ladder braced, but x-braced top and back, so in some respects they have some of the euphonics of a flattop, despite differences in bridge type (moustache with bone saddle) and string type (Argentine).

:-)

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

A great deal has been written here, much by myself, on the subject of Pernambuco, and you can find it easily. The tonal signatures of P and Cocobolo are barely comparable, with Coco being aggressive and hard, while P is clear and sweet, typically. I have used German 3 times for each of my 3 Adi P guitars, and haven't made a loser yet, couldn't say which is better. The one I am showing next week at Healsdburg is Adi, and no one is liable to say anything negative about its sound IMO.

I have built a number of induced arch flat top trapeze bridge guitars (Selmer/Macaferri is such) and played many more, including A Cocobolo/Adi Michael Dunn I owned for a while. Nearly all are exceptionally trebly guitars with a lot of agressive bite to the sound. The Dunn I had was way too edgy for me, but the guy who bought from me likes it, and Dunn himself reckoned it very successful. If I made one with your pair of choices, it would be P.

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

A great deal has been written here, much by myself, on the subject of Pernambuco, and you can find it easily. The tonal signatures of P and Cocobolo are barely comparable, with Coco being aggressive and hard, while P is clear and sweet, typically. I have used German 3 times for each of my 3 Adi P guitars, and haven't made a loser yet, couldn't say which is better. The one I am showing next week at Healsdburg is Adi, and no one is liable to say anything negative about its sound IMO.

I have built a number of induced arch flat top trapeze bridge guitars (Selmer/Macaferri is such) and played many more, including A Cocobolo/Adi Michael Dunn I owned for a while. Nearly all are exceptionally trebly guitars with a lot of agressive bite to the sound. The Dunn I had was way too edgy for me, but the guy who bought from me likes it, and Dunn himself reckoned it very successful. If I made one with your pair of choices, it would be P.

I have played a couple of Bruce's pernambuco guitars. I agree that it will impress anyone who plays it at HGF, but it's a different sound than cocobolo. To my ears, it has less overtone content and more presence and clarity. I like the sound A LOT.

[Howard Klepper]

I've been hesitant to post, Bob, because I'm having some trouble getting the idea of a Maccaferri grande bouche for solo chord melody playing. But when you say X-braced, that sounds like Bernie Lehmann (there's no need that I can see for people to be coy about naming builders) and he says his bracing warms them up a lot and makes for a hybrid. I haven't heard one, but I love Bernie's work.

Search the forum and you will find we have been over these woods before. I describe pernambuco as pure, clear, and balanced, giving support to all frequency ranges. Cocobolo is somewhat glassy and reverby, which to me means very strong trebles and overtones--more so than Brazilian rosewood to which it is sometimes compared. But it also goes down deep into the bass. Both ends of the frequency range are extended with coco. I have likened coco guitars (other things being equal, which is kind of a joke) to race cars. Capable of great performance, but amplifying mistakes rather than forgiving them. My overall take on cocobolo is positive, perhaps more so than Bruce's. YMMV, depends on the builder, yadda yadda.

[iim7V7IM7]

Yes, Howard I have been in discussions with Bernie. Thanks for your sonic descriptions. What type of spruce have you coupled with cocobolo? Given what you describe, perhaps Sitka might be a better choice than adirondack or German silver spruce?

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

I've been hesitant to post, Bob, because I'm having some trouble getting the idea of a Maccaferri grande bouche for solo chord melody playing. But when you say X-braced, that sounds like Bernie Lehmann (there's no need that I can see for people to be coy about naming builders) and he says his bracing warms them up a lot and makes for a hybrid. I haven't heard one, but I love Bernie's work.

Search the forum and you will find we have been over these woods before. I describe pernambuco as pure, clear, and balanced, giving support to all frequency ranges. Cocobolo is somewhat glassy and reverby, which to me means very strong trebles and overtones--more so than Brazilian rosewood to which it is sometimes compared. But it also goes down deep into the bass. Both ends of the frequency range are extended with coco. I have likened coco guitars (other things being equal, which is kind of a joke) to race cars. Capable of great performance, but amplifying mistakes rather than forgiving them. My overall take on cocobolo is positive, perhaps more so than Bruce's. YMMV, depends on the builder, yadda yadda.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by iim7v7im7

.... [snip] .... 3) With pernambuco (orange) and or cocobolo (deep reddish) what binding woods have you had aesthetic success with? .... [snip] ....

I like the Morado binding that was used on my Pernambuco 000.



The color in this shot is a bit washed out:

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by iim7v7im7

Yes, Howard I have been in discussions with Bernie. Thanks for your sonic descriptions. What type of spruce have you coupled with cocobolo? Given what you describe, perhaps Sitka might be a better choice than adirondack or German silver spruce?

I think European spruce is the best all-around top wood. I don't use Sitka as a rule. If you play hard enough to overdrive a top, then Adirondack.

[ewh2]

Just my two cents, but I think the choice of tonewoods for a fingerstyle steel string guitar would be different to a Gypsy Jazz guitar.

I've played a few all solid GJ guitars, a few flat/GK hybrids that have all largely underwhelmed. They were generally all too bassy which for the GJ model doesn't usually work.

Even though they have steel strings I think GJ guitars are closer to Flamenco guitars, in terms of a tone, as they seek the balance between a rhythmic sound and a bright lead sound.

[dennisczech]

I played a Sitka/cocobolo OM guitar recently by an aspiring Irish luthier who's still amateur: a friend of mine got this instrument for very little money. It was the most ludicrously warm-sounding guitar: the tone was seriously lush, rich and friendly. I have played instruments costing ten times as much that sound thin and reedy in comparison. It didn't fit my cocobolo preconceptions at all, i.e. glassy, trebly, lacking in body etc. quite the opposite. Curiously, my friend reminded me of another very warm-toned guitar we both really liked from a few years ago: a John Kinnaird Jumbo made from, yes, cocobolo.
The nicest grande bouche I have played was made by an English amateur called Neil Frost out of Sitka and lacewood, and the same friend of mine has an excellent D-hole in cedar and rosewood made by Rob Aylward.
I guess the point is wood choices, schmoices. Bernie will probably build you a great guitar with whatever, and if a warmed-up D-hole is what you want, then he's the logical choice.

[iim7V7IM7]

Since my luthier has made many of these types of instruments both traditionally braced (ladder) and hybrid braced (x), I should trust his ability to marry design, materials and execution to achieve a sound (he also makes classical, flat tops and archtops).

The process of specifying a custom instrument is trying to match a clients described goals with a result based on a luthier's knowledge and experience.That being said, a forum like this is an unusual opportunity to hear from a variety of master luthiers which is a real treat. I am close to specifying an instrument and hearing from other knowledgeable makers is extremely helpful.

This instrument will not be used for traditional gypsy jazz (although I do play a few solo Django pieces like Minor Swing, Nuage, and Tears). I mostly will use it as an alternative to my Archtop to play solo jazz chord melody. I am looking for an instrument that acoustically falls between my Archtop and my OM. I have had an Asian gypsy guitar for a few years now that i bought as an experiment, and have enjoyed playing it (maple/ adirondack). But there are many things that I would like changed in a custom instrument. That is what we are discussing with this commision.