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  #211  
Old 09-30-2008, 03:49 AM
Earthworm Earthworm is offline
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Oh, I disagree. AlohaChris, fly me out and I'll bring my Bose Model II and we'll have a shootout.

Seriously, though, I don't want to get involved in this debate. Others are more knowledgeable than me. Nonetheless, the Bose system has been working for me for four years and I've never had a complaint about the sound (except for one waitress who says turn it down).

The best part of the Bose system is being able to monitor the sound myself. That you cannot do with a conventional system.
  #212  
Old 09-30-2008, 05:26 AM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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Aloha,

If you use two Boses or Soloamps - with Subwoofers in Stereo - you may get the dispersion you need for a normal bar/restaurant crowd.

A single Mono tower of any technology can't possibly do that job. You don't need science to figure it out, just your ears and a crowded room.

I'd put my conventional stereo, dual speaker source up against a single Bose or Soloamp ANY DAY!

Try it yourselves. Compare a conventional Mackie or JBL EON stereo PA system to those two single source systems in a normal bar crowd and sit across the room when the tables are full - and listen. There is simply no comparison!

alohachris
My PA consisted of a pair of Electro-Voice SX300s on tripods so I'm well aware of the limitations of conventional speaker systems. You haven't explained why a line array is at a disadvantage where the ambient noise is high. It is not enough to declare that it can't do the job, you must explain why you believe that to be the case.

It seems to me that overcoming noise is simply a matter of turning up the volume control whether one is using a conventional speaker system or a line array and try as I might I can't see what it is about a loud crowd that defeats a line array.
  #213  
Old 09-30-2008, 01:20 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Aloha,

For me, it's not so much line array vs. conventional PA, it's SINGLE SOURCE SPEAKER vs. a true stereo PA with very efficient speakers.

It's DUAL SPEAKER SOURCES that allow you to place those speakers in such a way in a given room to create and take advantage of an appropriate, expanded stereo imaging field and to control the frequencies and shape of the room that diminish tone and dispersion.

A stereo imaging field created by two speakers allows for better dispersion than a single speaker source or group in mono, be that acoustic amp, Soloamp (I guess), and Bose (which I really know about having used it often in crowds).

My Pendulum/TC Electronic/Parasound/Daedalus mini PA is expensive, but much more efficient and better sounding than most live signal chains. There is really no comparison with the Peavey, Mackie and JBL conventional systems I used to use, despite the Daedalus speakers being much smaller. It is MUCH better sounding and for penetration and dispersion than the Bose based on my experience.

So it's about Stereo placement of speakers and using incredible speakers created mainly for acoustic guitar for me in terms of making it work in crowds of all sizes. As I've said, you couldn't pay me to buy or use a Bose with just one tower in a louder venue - because I've already used it almost 200 times and it didn't work for me. My current rig does.

You can create a better, deep sounding, expanded stereo field with my conventional rig than is possible with any single source or tower.

I still think that conventional PA's provide for more penetration in crowds than line arrays. BUT, a couple of efficient line arrays, with a couple subwoofers, set up in stereo and raised off the ground also can work great.

But I don't think the Bose or the Soloamp systems are of the quality that we musicians really need to get what I get from my Daedalus 803's. I think there is better our there and better to come.

Finally, please remember that the main marketing hook for both the Bose and Soloamp is portability, not sound quality. So it's aimed at aging musicians like me who are perceived to have money. Schlepping my system IS a real PIA, especially after gigs. But, it's the best live sound I've ever heard so I guess I'll just have to schlepp it til I can schlepp no mo'.

A Hui Hou!
alohachris
  #214  
Old 09-30-2008, 01:33 PM
jackstrat jackstrat is offline
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...Nonetheless, the Bose system has been working for me for four years and I've never had a complaint about the sound (except for one waitress who says turn it down).
Tim,
Nice web site, great videos.

Jack
  #215  
Old 09-30-2008, 03:34 PM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
Aloha,

For me, it's not so much line array vs. conventional PA, it's SINGLE SOURCE SPEAKER vs. a true stereo PA with very efficient speakers. ...
Your position seems to be that two speaker cabinets are better suited to drowning out a noisy audience, that it is not so much the type of speaker system but the use of a pair of systems that better overcomes ambient noise. However, farther into your post you state that you "still think that conventional PA's provide for more penetration in crowds than line array." So we are back to wondering what is it about a pair of conventional speakers that enables them to overcome crowd noise better than a pair of line arrays.

Of course a single Bose array is not going to create a stereophonic field at all but then in most PA setups involving a pair of speaker cabinets, the stereophonic effect is only experienced in a part of the room, assuming that the sound engineer has done more than pan hard left and right.

No one is questioning the quality and fidelity of Daedalus speakers which is better than typical, less expensive PA speakers but higher fidelity has little to do with drowning audience noise. That is beside the point. (A pair of Daedalus W-803s costs $2,790 a complete Bose L1, which includes the bass module, sells for $2,500.) The issue is conventional speaker cabinets versus line arrays, not Daedalus versus Bose.
  #216  
Old 09-30-2008, 10:57 PM
Rick Turner Rick Turner is offline
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Having been a participant in the design of the largest line array system ever put on stage...the Grateful Dead's "Wall of Sound," I cannot agree with any disparaging comments about line arrays, per se. Line arrays do indeed project better than point sources or near point sources. It's not opinion, its the facts of physics and sound propagation. You may compare one brand of one type of speaker unfavorably with another, but don't paint all line arrays or any other type of speaker cabinet with so broad a brush. There are a multitude of factors to apply here...power, driver efficiency, polar pattern, frequency response, placement of the drivers, etc.

I've used the Bose systems in a number of applications, and within reasonable limits, I've never had a problem or been disappointed. I do want to design a good platform to put the base of the column up on top of a couple of sub-woofers; I don't like the system down on a floor firing into a bunch of audience legs and torsos, but if you get the thing up so mid column is about at audience ear level...or go a bit higher and aim down, it should be fantastic.

I also don't agree that the thing has a "Bose sound". It sounds very smooth and flat within a broad midrange and it's pretty decent up to about 10K. I'd love to hear one with four subwoofers. That would be "da bomb".
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  #217  
Old 10-02-2008, 08:28 AM
Earthworm Earthworm is offline
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Tim,
Nice web site, great videos.

Jack
Thanks, Jack.
  #218  
Old 10-02-2008, 08:31 AM
Earthworm Earthworm is offline
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Rick,
I'm still planning on that Duece we talked about. Just need to pay for a few things first (including my new CD duplication/mastering/etc.). I'll be in touch.
  #219  
Old 10-02-2008, 10:27 PM
jstancil jstancil is offline
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Well, finally got a chance to play with this nice little system. Picked it up from FedEx at about noon today, took it to my gig right after work and had it setup in about 3 minutes. I was playing on a pretty good sized open patio, big rectangle shape, probably about 20'x60' maybe a little bigger. I setup the SA in one of the corners and playing about 3 feet to the side and slightly in front of it. Had the mic at about 1 oclock and the guitar at about 11, master volume was only at about 25%.

There was probably a solid 40 folks out on the patio talking away. I was told you could hear everything very clear all around the patio. In fact, had a number of compliments from the management and staff, even a few regulars let me know it sounded great. The night manager couldnt believe I got that sound out of one little tower. I noticed across the street about 200' away folks were hanging out by the entrance to a hotel and dancing around during songs so they must have been able to hear it as well.

I gotta tell you, I am pretty pumped about using this system for the majority of my gigs. In a week or two I will get a chance to use it in a nice loud and rowdy bar, I will be sure to let you guys know how that goes!
  #220  
Old 10-03-2008, 06:31 AM
Towzer Towzer is offline
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Thanks for the review

How was the bass sound coming out of it as I have seen the posts on additional subs etc etc ?
  #221  
Old 10-03-2008, 07:29 AM
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Thanks for the review

How was the bass sound coming out of it as I have seen the posts on additional subs etc etc ?
You won't need a sub for just an acoustic and vocals, has plenty low end. I am going to run an ipod through it this weekend for a "cocktail hour", we will see how it handles that.
  #222  
Old 10-03-2008, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by jstancil View Post
You won't need a sub for just an acoustic and vocals, has plenty low end. I am going to run an ipod through it this weekend for a "cocktail hour", we will see how it handles that.
I am beginning to salivate .......... please people keep the experiences and observations coming
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  #223  
Old 10-03-2008, 08:30 AM
jstancil jstancil is offline
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I am beginning to salivate .......... please people keep the experiences and observations coming
The only way to end the madness is just go get one for yourself and try it out!!

I can't tell you how excited I was to stop playing and pack up just to see how long it took! No more lugging in a big rack and two mains, no more running speaker cables all over the place. I unplugged and in about 10 mintues I had everything in the car and was sitting down for a beer with my friends.
  #224  
Old 10-03-2008, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jstancil View Post
The only way to end the madness is just go get one for yourself and try it out!!

I can't tell you how excited I was to stop playing and pack up just to see how long it took! No more lugging in a big rack and two mains, no more running speaker cables all over the place. I unplugged and in about 10 mintues I had everything in the car and was sitting down for a beer with my friends.
Ya know what you are right !!! falls under GAS Gear Acqu. Syndrome Now where in heck did I put my wallet ? child of the 60s
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  #225  
Old 10-03-2008, 09:49 AM
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Great conversation and info being passed here. Unfortunately, I need to close this thread down to keep our database happy.

Here's a link to Part II...: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=136847

Thanks!!!
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Last edited by Gutch; 10-03-2008 at 09:52 AM. Reason: Added link
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