Boutique vs Martin for dreads

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by Deputy289

Took home a 2020 Bourgeois D-Vintage this week with Sitka and Indian Rosewood and couldn’t be more in love. It reminds me so much of my old HD-28 in both sound as well as looks. Cosmetically, you would be hard pressed to spot any differences.

The Bourgeois is $1,500 more expensive, even though you are looking at roughly the same ingredients. My question is, when you pay for the premium price for the boutique version, what is going into that extra price tag? Better woods? More “handmade” aspects? Boutique notoriety?

Economies of scale. A relatively small business like Bourgeois can't sell enough to bring costs down. Bourgeois build about 400 guitars per year, Martin around 85,000 and the cost savings are passed on to you, the consumer. Given also that both companies employ a significant degree of automation in production the amount of 'hand work' involved can be overstated as a justification for price differentials.

[buddyhu]

I dont think it is fair to generalize about what you get when you buy a boutique guitar.

If we inly consider sound/tone, some boutiques clearly offer something uncommon (there is no Martin that sounds like a Goodall...period). Other boutiques offer something that might be harder to discern as meaningfully different from what can be had from the big 3 makers. And, most guitar makers (and particularly the long-standing ones, of which Martin would be the best example) have changing sound palettes if you look at guitars that are 30 or 40 years old, comparing them with brand new guitars of the same model.

Whether any of these tonal differences is worth the price that one must pay is a matter of personal opinion.

And there are other differences....but again, it depends upon the details. A 1970’s D18 with a misplaced bridge will sound and feel very different from a new Santa Cruz 14 fret Mahogany dread. But what can we say about your average D18 (averaging across all years of manufacture) vs your average boutique mahogany dread (averaged over all well known boutiques)? Virtually nothing that is meaningful.

[Racerbob]

I've had several Martins, couple were great. One d18 GE a dud. The rest average. Same experience with Taylor. In my experience I've yet to find a bunch of a specific Martin or Taylor in one place so I could play them all to find the "jewel".

I've yet to find a significant difference in the boutique builders examples I've personally tried. A difference in the tone or voicing of their guitar compared to other builders but consistent in their guitars. Considering I've bought at least half my guitars remotely, the name boutique builder's guitars have yet to produce a disappoinment.

There has been some for one reason or other were not what I was looking for but I wouldn't say any of them were a dud that didn't reflect what was claimed by the builder as to their tonal qualities.

[martingitdave]

Any wooden guitar is a man made product consisting of mostly nature made materials. It's always going to be a function of the quality of those materials and the skills of the people in constructing them into a guitar. Factory made instruments are usually known for the construction consistency and generally good materials. Martin has both high quality materials and very good manufacturing, much done by hand. Alternatively, smaller builders can have more control over the finer details and specifications that might need to change to get the best out of their materials. Another benefit of smaller builders is the ability to easily customize the neck and string spacing. That usually can't happen on a factory assembly line.

It's a matter of economics, and to some extent, chance. My settled solution to get the benefit of the highest quality materials, and the best sound I can find, at a reasonable price, is to play as many examples of a factory model that I am interested in and buy the best sounding one. The cost of the boutique models is sometimes 50% to 100% more expensive. I think if I found one that was head and shoulders above the Martins I enjoy, then I would buy it. But, if you take your time, and you're picky, you can find the right one from any maker.

[warfrat73]

Originally Posted by Zexxor

The worst thing about boutique buyers are the stuffed shirts who think they are a special breed. I could afford a boutique if I wanted to push it and make my wife angry, but I don't think I should spend my money that way. It feels prideful and kind of arrogant, but maybe that is what I fear in myself and others who are truly humble do not have that issue.

I guess I've never really considered myself a stuffed shirt before. A lot of us around here, apparently.

There are, I should venture, quite a few people who take a great deal of pride in owning their Martin, Gibson or Taylor as well.

Each nice guitar I own represents some sort of sacrifice that I've made in order to purchase it. I'm not now--nor have I ever been--in a position, in which I just had the money lying around looking for something to do with it.

[Zexxor]

Originally Posted by warfrat73

I guess I've never really considered myself a stuffed shirt before. A lot of us around here, apparently.

There are, I should venture, quite a few people who take a great deal of pride in owning their Martin, Gibson or Taylor as well.

Each nice guitar I own represents some sort of sacrifice that I've made in order to purchase it. I'm not now--nor have I ever been--in a position, in which I just had the money lying around looking for something to do with it.

Then I would say you are the humble person to which I refer.

[Tnfiddler]

Originally Posted by warfrat73

I guess I've never really considered myself a stuffed shirt before. A lot of us around here, apparently.

There are, I should venture, quite a few people who take a great deal of pride in owning their Martin, Gibson or Taylor as well.

Each nice guitar I own represents some sort of sacrifice that I've made in order to purchase it. I'm not now--nor have I ever been--in a position, in which I just had the money lying around looking for something to do with it.

Well written! I don’t get the whole stuffed shirt, prideful and arrogant comments! Those comments in themselves are stuffed shirt, arrogant and condescending! My outlook on buying boutique guitars is this. I’ve worked my tail off for the Majority of my life and I’ll buy what I want and for me, a boutique guitar is what I want.

[nedray]

I own 2 Martin dreds, a Martin 000 14-fret and a 12-fret a Gibson AJ, a Santa Cruz OM, a Collings OM2H-T and D1-T, and I've had a couple Bourgeois OMs come and go fairly quickly, so I have some experience on which to call. They're all nice and I keep wanting to sell half of them, but can't bring myself to do it. From a pure tonal standpoint, my Martins always stun me with their warmth, volume, and articulation. The only thing I don't like about two of my Martins is the Performing Artist neck profile, which I can manage, but don't find comfortable. My other Martins are Golden Era models and feature necks that I find much better. My Collings Traditionals are great and the D1 is a cannon, just like a Golden Era D-18,. while the OM is just a pretty good OM with a nice neck. Compared to Martin they probably cost 50% more than their counterparts. The Santa Cruz leaves me a little flat and I don't know why--it sounds great but isn't as assertive as some, I guess. Cost was twice that of a plain vanilla OM-28.

I guess my bottom line is that Martin makes really good guitars, and I find them to be quite consistent. Unless you're really into the mystique and have the money to spare, I see nothing wrong with buying Martin (if you can find one these days).

[Rev Roy]

Originally Posted by Tnfiddler

Well written! I don’t get the whole stuffed shirt, prideful and arrogant comments! Those comments in themselves are stuffed shirt, arrogant and condescending! My outlook on buying boutique guitars is this. I’ve worked my tail off for the Majority of my life and I’ll buy what I want and for me, a boutique guitar is what I want.

Stuffed shirts? You mean like this? Personally I haven’t come across such folks in the wild. Most people I know with boutique guitars are pretty humble about it. They know they have a fine instrument few others can afford and don’t feel the need to rub it in anyone’s face. But I’m pretty new to the boutique bandwagon so maybe I’ll come across such folks at some point.

I completely agree with your other point: My hard work, my money, my choice. Only a stuffed shirt would look down on me for owning whatever guitar floats my boat.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Deputy289

My question is, when you pay for the premium price for the boutique version, what is going into that extra price tag?

I must respectfully disagree with your premise about similarity. I recall playing a number of Martin rosewood dreads, including an America's Guitar, when I ended up buying a Bourgeois Signature D. It was quite a bit cheaper than the Martin America's Guitar

The two brands do not sound that much alike -- Bourgeois is more mellow, richer. Conversely, I haven't played a rosewood Bourgeois with that characteristic Martin chime.

You end up paying for the sound you want.

[Scotso]

If like in Highlander, there can only be one, for me it would be Martin. That despite the others that sit in my racks now or in the past. The Martin sound is the sound(decade by decade, bracing pattern by bracing pattern, diff b/s) to which I and many many others compare other guitar sounds to.

There can be only one!

[SpruceTop]

My 2020 Martin HD-28 Sunburst and my 2017 Huss & Dalton TD-R both sound and look great. If you took one or the other away from me I'd be very happy with what I then would have remaining.

[brencat]

Originally Posted by Deputy289

Took home a 2020 Bourgeois D-Vintage this week with Sitka and Indian Rosewood and couldnÂ’t be more in love. It reminds me so much of my old HD-28 in both sound as well as looks. Cosmetically, you would be hard pressed to spot any differences.

The Bourgeois is $1,500 more expensive, even though you are looking at roughly the same ingredients. My question is, when you pay for the premium price for the boutique version, what is going into that extra price tag? Better woods? More “handmade” aspects? Boutique notoriety?

Congrats on your D-Vintage!

To me, the biggest advantages of boutiques over a production builder are better fit and finish, custom specs like neck profiles, string spacings etc, and most importantly...tap tuning/optimizing the top and bracing such that the guitar can be the best it can be out of the gate.

Production builders like Martin and Taylor build to a spec. Same top thickness, same size bracing per model, homogenized. Nothing wrong with this approach when youÂ’re selling 100k guitars per year. But the bell curve of life will apply: most are pretty good, some are dogs, and a select few are exceptional. The exceptional ones are where THAT piece of wood cut to the stated spec and matched with the homogenized bracing was optimal. How often can that possibly happen when you donÂ’t tap tune? IÂ’d bet itÂ’s less than 2 out of every 150 guitars produced.

IÂ’ve had lots of Martins and a bunch of boutiques. IÂ’m still buying and selling, which means no one builder has it all figured out yet. Boutiques can be great but so can a production guitar. ItÂ’s the sum of the parts...tone, playability, and feel. Tastes, needs, and playing styles change. Buy what makes you happy.

[Kerbie]

Originally Posted by Zexxor

The worst thing about boutique buyers are the stuffed shirts who think they are a special breed.

That is a very broad condemnation. Our rules state, "The philosophy at the Acoustic Guitar Forum is that the best guitar for YOU is the guitar that you fall in love with - the guitar that speaks to you." So, please let others play what they want and you may do the same.

[handers]

Originally Posted by Deputy289

Took home a 2020 Bourgeois D-Vintage this week with Sitka and Indian Rosewood and couldn’t be more in love. It reminds me so much of my old HD-28 in both sound as well as looks. Cosmetically, you would be hard pressed to spot any differences.

The Bourgeois is $1,500 more expensive, even though you are looking at roughly the same ingredients. My question is, when you pay for the premium price for the boutique version, what is going into that extra price tag? Better woods? More “handmade” aspects? Boutique notoriety?

In most cases, small shops build each guitar individually. They build to that guitar's specs and wood pieces, not just species. That's what you get with a handmade guitar. They are often build to a specific purpose for specific clients. Larger boutique small shops still build mostly handmade instruments. This is what costs more.

hans