The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 05-01-2021, 10:01 AM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,556
Default

Has anyone else compared the two? I would love to get back to the original question, as I am still considering the VP.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05-01-2021, 10:03 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,709
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
No, the TD unit has the math capability ONBOARD to process an IR in real time and create a new response as you turn the dial. Splitting means that that upper frequency IR can change differently than the lower end, which isbthe source of feedback. It's genius compared to a static IR with post processing EQ applied.
Thanks for the explanation, Jon. I still don't understand the theory very well, but it helps to know when my presumptions are wrong.

My thinking on this anti-feedback thing is this: We know that some acoustic guitars are less feedback prone and less boominess prone than other acoustic guitars, irregardless of the performance environment. If TD's, or the VP's, single-dial anti-feedback knob can make my iBeam-equipped D28 react more like a small guitar, then I can get more boominess-free volume when needed for picking with bare fingerpads in a loud setting. It may help to reverse the phase as well, but I won't need to roll-off the entire bass end.

Conversely, when I'm strumming hard and want my D28 to sound like a D28, I'll only have to lower the volume and roll back the anti-feedback dial.

Last edited by guitaniac; 05-01-2021 at 10:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 05-01-2021, 10:58 AM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 25,422
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
If TD's, or the VP's, single-dial anti-feedback knob can make my iBeam-equipped D28 react more like a small guitar, then I can get more boominess-free volume when needed for picking with bare fingerpads in a loud setting. It may help to reverse the phase as well, but I won't need to roll-off the entire bass end.

Conversely, when I'm strumming hard and want my D28 to sound like a D28, I'll only have to lower the volume and roll back the anti-feedback dial.
In an ideal world, wouldn't you only dial back the "boominess" in the stage monitors, and leave the mains alone? Or at least dial back the stage monitors a lot more than the mains.

I don't think either of these units has a separate "mains out" and "monitor out", or the TWO knobs you'd need to do this. I guess it's too late to patent the idea now. LOL. I would think places with dedicated sound engineers do this all the time, though.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 05-01-2021, 11:32 AM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: France
Posts: 3,005
Default

I think you overestimate the complexity of what TD does (feedback wise). What Jon or Dave describe, which might or might not be what TD does, can be easily done with a programmable board like the axoloti.

You don’t even need to know programming for that. It is a graphic language.

All the IR loader of the market except the NUX optima AIR are designed with electric guitar in mind. For electric guitarist, feedback is a advantage not a problem (ask Jimi Hendrix)
__________________
Martin 00-18V Goldplus + internal mic (2003)
Martin OM-28V + HFN + internal mic (1999)
Eastman E6OM (2019) Trance Audio Amulet
Yamaha FGX-412 (1998)

Gibson Les Paul Standard 1958 Reissue (2013)
Fender Stratocaster American Vintage 1954 (2014)
http://acousticir.free.fr/

Last edited by Cuki79; 05-02-2021 at 03:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05-01-2021, 01:27 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,709
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
In an ideal world, wouldn't you only dial back the "boominess" in the stage monitors, and leave the mains alone? Or at least dial back the stage monitors a lot more than the mains.

I don't think either of these units has a separate "mains out" and "monitor out", or the TWO knobs you'd need to do this. I guess it's too late to patent the idea now. LOL. I would think places with dedicated sound engineers do this all the time, though.
TD has both a DI out and a 1/4" out. I believe the VP only has the 1/4" out.

In my own case, I've often gigged with just a Solo Amp for small gigs. I've used monitors and mains for the various open mics which I've hosted, but I've had to control the guitar sound from the stage since I'm the only soundman and the mixer isn't close at hand.

With respect to situations where one is blessed (or cursed) with a house soundman, its still a useful thing to have the option of feeding him/her a less boomy signal. I'd rather have TD notching down the boomy resonant frequencies than have a soundman rolling off the entire bass end.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 05-01-2021, 01:39 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 25,422
Default

[QUOTE=guitaniac;6705496]TD has both a DI out and a 1/4" out. I believe the VP only has the 1/4" out.[quote]

ToneDexter has a DI (XLR) out, and a 1/4" headphone out, and a 1/4" effects out/in (TRS). I assume all three outs are AFTER the ToneDexter has done its thing applying the IR.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 05-01-2021, 01:47 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,709
Default

[QUOTE=SongwriterFan;6705501][QUOTE=guitaniac;6705496]TD has both a DI out and a 1/4" out. I believe the VP only has the 1/4" out.
Quote:

ToneDexter has a DI (XLR) out, and a 1/4" headphone out, and a 1/4" effects out/in (TRS). I assume all three outs are AFTER the ToneDexter has done its thing applying the IR.
The main 1/4" out is on the left side when facing the device. The other two 1/4" outs which you mentioned are on the back.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 05-01-2021, 01:51 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 9,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
TD has both a DI out and a 1/4" out. I believe the VP only has the 1/4" out.
Both devices have 1/4 and XLR outs. But I think what was being suggested was different IRs for each output, which neither device does.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05-01-2021, 01:55 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 25,422
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
The main 1/4" out is on the left side when facing the device. The other two 1/4" outs which you mentioned are on the back.
D'oh! Didn't even see it, looking RIGHT at the device sitting on my desk.

Still, I think it's after the IR has been applied, too.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-01-2021, 01:59 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 25,422
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Both devices have 1/4 and XLR outs. But I think what was being suggested was different IRs for each output, which neither device does.
Exactly. Though as guitaniac pointed out, getting somebody to actually USE both outputs might be more of a challenge than I originally thought.

But if you arrived early enough at a venue, and the soundman and you got along well, I think it would be possible: you could have the 'boominess' of a dreadnought greatly reduced for on-stage use, while letting the the mains retain a lot more of it (if it sounded good).

I guess in an ideal world, you'd record some of your guitar guitar into a looper, then work with the sound guy to get the house sound like something you both liked.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 05-01-2021, 02:03 PM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Allentown, PA
Posts: 4,598
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
Thanks for the explanation, Jon. I still don't understand the theory very well, but it helps to know when my presumptions are wrong.

My thinking on this anti-feedback thing is this: We know that some acoustic guitars are less feedback prone and less boominess prone than other acoustic guitars, irregardless of the performance environment. If TD's, or the VP's, single-dial anti-feedback knob can make my iBeam-equipped D28 react more like a small guitar, then I can get more boominess-free volume when needed for picking with bare fingerpads in a loud setting. It may help to reverse the phase as well, but I won't need to roll-off the entire bass end.

Conversely, when I'm strumming hard and want my D28 to sound like a D28, I'll only have to lower the volume and roll back the anti-feedback dial.
If you want to sound like a mic'd acoustic guitar you are going to have feedback problems if you have that sound on-stage via monitors. The split IR lets you back off the bass enhancement of the IR without touching the de-quack high end.

Minimum phase is a conversion of the IR to one with the same frequency response but a shorter (different) phase response. Another different phase response with the same frequency response is phase inversion. With TD you've got two additional phase responses (phase switch on the back and minimum phase cooked into the character knob) to try out to see if one of them stops the monitors impact to your guitar from being additive to your guitar's pickup.

Then ToneDexter offers the standard bass control (the one that works musically for all of us) and a user configurable notch (computers are really not needed to set one of these).

All-in-all, if when bypassing the IR your guitar is a feedback problem, that needs to be dealt with first before perfecting your tone. Backing off the bass in the floor monitors, or not using floor monitors, are my two favorite solutions.

I think ToneDexter with the DSP built in and what seems to me to be smart programing fully understanding the IR algorithms, is pretty neat.

I hope it's the winner.
__________________
jf45ir Free DIY Acoustic Guitar IR Generator
.wav file, 30 seconds, pickup left, mic right, open position strumming best...send to direct email below
I'll send you 100/0, 75/25, 50/50 & 0/100 IR/Bypass IRs
IR Demo, read the description too: https://youtu.be/SELEE4yugjE
My duo's website and my email... [email protected]

Jon Fields
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 05-01-2021, 02:52 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 25,422
Default

If you're using the ToneDexter, but have the "Character" knob turned fully counter-clockwise (essentially the unprocessed pickup), what happens if you start turning the "Notch" knob clockwise? Will it still start taking out the "problem frequencies" (as determined in the IR-creation process)?

In other words, even if you are using very little of the "mic" sound, will the Notch knob work to reduce feedback better than the typical "notch filter" on other DIs / EQs?
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 05-01-2021, 02:57 PM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Allentown, PA
Posts: 4,598
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
If you're using the ToneDexter, but have the "Character" knob turned fully counter-clockwise (essentially the unprocessed pickup), what happens if you start turning the "Notch" knob clockwise? Will it still start taking out the "problem frequencies" (as determined in the IR-creation process)?

In other words, even if you are using very little of the "mic" sound, will the Notch knob work to reduce feedback better than the typical "notch filter" on other DIs / EQs?
I assume it is roughly the same.
__________________
jf45ir Free DIY Acoustic Guitar IR Generator
.wav file, 30 seconds, pickup left, mic right, open position strumming best...send to direct email below
I'll send you 100/0, 75/25, 50/50 & 0/100 IR/Bypass IRs
IR Demo, read the description too: https://youtu.be/SELEE4yugjE
My duo's website and my email... [email protected]

Jon Fields
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 05-01-2021, 02:59 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,709
Default

Jon,

I certainly agree that trying to imitate a miked guitar sound tends to invite feedback. It surprised me to discover that some of the DTAR Mama Bear's bigger target guitars would actually make my Rick Turner RS-6 feed back.

On the plus side, the smaller Mama Bear target guitars were much less problematic with respect to feedback or excessive boominess. If the VP's, or TD's, single-knob dial can remove a big guitar's problematic resonant frequencies, it seems likely that one can get a decently balanced miked guitar sound at a noticeably higher amplification than if those problem frequencies aren't notched.

I recall that it was mentioned, in one of the VP live demos, that the single-knob resonant frequency cuts target the three most troublesome resonant frequencies of the guitar being analyzed and used to create the voiceprint. I'm hoping that those three cuts will be more effective than what can be done with a single fixed depth notch. In any event, I'm looking forward to the user feedback on TD's, and the VP's, anti-feedback systems.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 05-01-2021, 03:08 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,709
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Both devices have 1/4 and XLR outs. But I think what was being suggested was different IRs for each output, which neither device does.
Oops. My bad. It takes a real dummy to forget that something called a VoicePrint DI would have an XLR out. Thanks for the correction. I'm a big fan of the LR Baggs company and should know better.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=