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  #46  
Old 05-05-2021, 09:49 AM
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Bob Womack Bob Womack is online now
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
Interesting. So people were doing it as far back as '81. I thought it was something that began trending over the past decade or less.

The first time I heard/read (I can't remember which but maybe about 2-3 years ago) someone's thoughts on the subject, it made perfect sense to me.
Oh, yeah, Way back when the SSL 4000 Series came out in the late 1970s it always had the bus compressor. By the mid-80s it was being discussed in the trades. I had it demonstrated to me in the SSL booth at the AES at the midtown Hilton in Manhattan in 1984 while, demoing the 4000 and 6000 series console. You can see it in the center section, just to the left of the in-console video monitor and the row of audio monitor selector switches, in this pic from 2003:



The console I was running when my boss came in and growled was a Neve 8058. To do it within the Neve you just link a pair of 32264 compressors for left and right. they are about ten inches above my right hand. Dig my 1982 hair and beard:



As I recall, that wasn't the only time that boss threatened to choke me.


Bob
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  #47  
Old 05-05-2021, 12:18 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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True, and I'll bet if you asked, many, if not most, would say they're mixing INTO the 2 buss compressor rather than applying it near the end of the process. They may be tweaking it throughout the process but it's likely on from the beginning.

Absolutely. In fact, one friend of mine, who has several Grammys, mixes out of Pro Tools into 4 stereo buses on his Neve, each with a compressor strapped on it that he never changes the settings on. He says he can tell if he's too hot or too light just by looking at how the compressors are moving. He says it keeps him from thinking something sounds better because he juiced it.
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1991 Washburn HB-35s
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  #48  
Old 05-05-2021, 12:25 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
For solo guitar, I typically put an LA-2 compressor on the track, with the compression light enough that the meters don't even move. It might be adding a half db or so of compression, but the point has nothing to do with achieving a loudness target, I just like the very subtle effect it has on tone and/or feel.

I'm not sure if you mean a hardware LA2A or a plugin, but if you use hardware...see if you can get your hands on an old JoeMeek SC2. The original one from 1995 with the makeup gain knob conveniently located on the back


They were a secret weapon for many because of the way they compressed. They had a dirty little secret about their signal path that was killer on the 2-bus. They made things feel really wide & open because they incorporated an M/S encode/decode circuit around the compressor.
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1991 Washburn HB-35s
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1996 Taylor 422-R (Limited Edition)
1997 Taylor 810-WMB (Limited Edition)
1998 Taylor 912c (Custom)
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  #49  
Old 05-05-2021, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by DupleMeter View Post
I'm not sure if you mean a hardware LA2A or a plugin, but if you use hardware...see if you can get your hands on an old JoeMeek SC2. The original one from 1995 with the makeup gain knob conveniently located on the back


They were a secret weapon for many because of the way they compressed. They had a dirty little secret about their signal path that was killer on the 2-bus. They made things feel really wide & open because they incorporated an M/S encode/decode circuit around the compressor.
I use the UAD plugin version. I had a Joe Meek long ago, I don't recall getting the magic out of it that was reported :-), but probably it was just me.

I do think there's a bit of difference between the sound many of us want for solo guitar (the original topic of this thread) as well as techniques to some extent, compared to larger full band mixes, where a lot of this discussion has ended up. Terms like "2-bus" and ideas like adding compression to each track before the mix are a little less meaningful when your entire "mix" is one track, and some of these "color" effects work against the more pure sound many of us are looking for with fingerstyle solo guitar - which can be more like a classical recording (tho highly variable and subject to style and taste).
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Old 05-06-2021, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
I do think there's a bit of difference between the sound many of us want for solo guitar (the original topic of this thread) as well as techniques to some extent, compared to larger full band mixes, where a lot of this discussion has ended up. Terms like "2-bus" and ideas like adding compression to each track before the mix are a little less meaningful when your entire "mix" is one track, and some of these "color" effects work against the more pure sound many of us are looking for with fingerstyle solo guitar - which can be more like a classical recording (tho highly variable and subject to style and taste).
This is of course the crux of matter . What exactly someone is doing (solo or multi track ) And the sound someone is after .

And to clarify a bit further as to terminology the reason I always use a 2-Bus (which I label 2 Mix)
And why I would even for a solo guitar session is because in Pro Tools an "Aux Track" ( 2 -Bus) track all the plugins are pre fader in the signal flow . Where the Master Fader track ( default main stereo output bus) the plugins are post fader
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  #51  
Old 05-06-2021, 11:09 AM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
This is of course the crux of matter . What exactly someone is doing (solo or multi track ) And the sound someone is after .

And to clarify a bit further as to terminology the reason I always use a 2-Bus (which I label 2 Mix)
And why I would even for a solo guitar session is because in Pro Tools an "Aux Track" ( 2 -Bus) track all the plugins are pre fader in the signal flow . Where the Master Fader track ( default main stereo output bus) the plugins are post fader
By creating submasters using Master Faders followed by Aux Faders whose inputs are the Masters' buses and whose outputs are your mix bus, you can have your cake and eat it too. Push into the compressors on the Masters, but then have post-fader control of the Auxes. Master-fader function, but in subgroups.
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  #52  
Old 05-06-2021, 11:32 AM
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T
And to clarify a bit further as to terminology the reason I always use a 2-Bus (which I label 2 Mix)
And why I would even for a solo guitar session is because in Pro Tools an "Aux

I use busses all the time, and do place some effects in Logic's final "Stereo Out", what it calls the 2-Mix,2-Bus, etc as well as on the individual track(s) and on various busses and submixes, depending on what I'm doing. There's lots of good reasons to use them. But I notice J-Doug hasn't come back since his original question; I'm guessing this was more than he was after :-) For most people, recording solo fingerstyle guitar amounts to setting the levels and adding a little reverb. Maybe some minor EQ, maybe some light compression/limiting. With only 1 track, things can be pretty simple!
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  #53  
Old 05-06-2021, 12:26 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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... I notice J-Doug hasn't come back since his original question; I'm guessing this was more than he was after...
Yeah, but it may not be for some of the other folks reading this. There seems to be a vast range here when it comes to complexity-tolerance.
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  #54  
Old 05-06-2021, 02:02 PM
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My Head is spinning trying to understand the exact meaning of Bus, 2 bus, 2 mix terms..! ha ha
I know we have somewhat been over this before...but I still get confused.
To Bus, just means you are adding the effect(compressor, eq, reverb) after you have recorded it? And two Bus means you are adding a two Bus's for a stereo signal?
Or does Bus mean that it is applied at the final outcome to the entire mix? Or is it either way.
Good things come in Pairs( well actually I hear three's--so maybe one more good news is coming)
I got a call that my John Hardy is ready to ship for tomorrow(today) Just some final testing it has to pass. And then later last night I got an Email from Buzz Audio that my New Velox Compressor is ready to ship.
Now the only problem, is I am leaving on the 24th for a major Traditional Archery tournament and fly fishing adventure in Montana. Can it get here before I leave?.. And even if it does...I will have little time to experiment with it as I am building so many other things in prep for my trip..
But I am so curious to see how this Velox preforms for my acoustic guitar. If not, I will certainly use it for voice. This will be the first One made. Normally I would like to buy a first one made. Need some time for testing. However..Buzz Audio has been making Compressors for years..and this is just a variation of a previous design.
Yeah, I like VU meters... They just work for me. Hard for me to enjoy those little lights.
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  #55  
Old 05-06-2021, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
My Head is spinning trying to understand the exact meaning of Bus, 2 bus, 2 mix terms..! ha ha
I know we have somewhat been over this before...but I still get confused.
To Bus, just means you are adding the effect(compressor, eq, reverb) after you have recorded it? And two Bus means you are adding a two Bus's for a stereo signal?
Or does Bus mean that it is applied at the final outcome to the entire mix? Or is it either way.
Your confusion is not surprising because unfortunately different DAWs use the term differently and or handle the implementation of use differently. And unfortunately the terminology has become misnomered or misused in some DAWs nomenclature, and now also in the audio world in general .

But for starters in this thread the term 2-bus and 2 -mix mean the same thing. What it actually is ---is a stereo Aux channel that the entire mix is routed to prior to going to the main outs.



What is a "BUS" ::
First it will help to state what a "Bus" actually is and isn't
A "Bus" is technically not a track,,,, repeat -- a "Bus" is not a track (even though some DAWs use the nomenclature "Bus Track" to describe what is technically an Aux track who's input is fed via a Bus

Think of a "bus" as a wire (or set of wires for stereo) or a pipeline (or dual pipes) between tracks .....
Or even more fundamentally a Bus (like the names implies in the physical world as a method of transporting one or more people someplace, via a specific route) ,,,,But in this case in the audio world,,,, a means of transporting one or more audio signals, and a way to route audio someplace other than directly to the main outs.. make sense ?

Now most DAWs allow you use Busses, in two different ways

#1, One way is via "Sends" . Where the "send" splits the audio signal and "sends" the audio in two different directions,,,,, (think of a T fitting in a pipeline and picture the T on its side ).... So one direction is out to the "bus", and the other direction is directly to the tracks output.
This is the "bus" method used for parallel processing for things like reverb. ( and parallel processing means the FX plugin or "processor" is not on the audio track itself, instead it is on an aux track,,,, and the audio from the audio track/s is "sent" via a "bus" to the aux track with the plug in on it (the aux tracks input is fed from that '"Bus")........ make sense ?

#2 The other use of a "Bus" is to route one or more tracks actual outputs to an Aux track. (usually stereo) This is used for things like grouping tracks outputs
Like a group of drum tracks , or a group of guitars etc .
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Last edited by KevWind; 05-06-2021 at 05:08 PM.
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  #56  
Old 05-06-2021, 07:46 PM
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Victor, maybe this will help. This is a Logic project, showing the mixer view.

Screen Shot 2021-05-06 at 6.17.19 PM.jpg

There are 6 recorded tracks, the 1st 6 columns. All 6 have their outputs (seen in the row labeled "Output") routed to the "Stereo Out". This is what people are calling the "2-bus". Notice that I have plugins on all the individual tracks, and also have a lot of plugins on the Stereo Out, aka 2-bus. The individual track plugins apply just to that track, so whatever that specific track needs, while the plugins on the stereo bus apply to everything - so I think of those as "mastering", final stuff that I want to apply to the entire mix.

As Kev said, the Stereo Out looks like a "track", I can do pretty much anything to it that I can do to a track. Add plugins, change volume, EQ, add automation, so on. But it has no audio of its own recorded on it, it's the the place where all the other tracks go before being sent to playback or mixdown.

I also have "Sends" on most of the tracks - You see labels of Bus 1 and Bus 2. The sound is sort of tee'd off to a bus, which again is like a track, but with no audio of its own, where I can again do anything I want - add plugins, EQ, volume, automation, and so on. The bus output then goes somewhere. In this case, it goes to the Stereo Out, where it gets combined with the other tracks. I have a reverb on each of those busses, and I can control how much of each individual track gets sent to each bus/reverb. Then on the bus itself, I control the over all reverb level. There are also other things going on here, on Bus 1, I have a plugin that itself sends the signal elsewhere - to a hardware output in this case, and captures its return. So this lets me patch in my hardware reverb. It's essentially another "bus" behind the scenes but it acts like an insert and it's a hardware "bus".

If I wanted parallel compression, I can simply send a track to a bus and put a compressor on the bus, then send both to the Stereo Out. Now I have both the raw signal and the compressed signal in parallel, both converging and being blended at the output. If I want to just compress an individual track (not in parallel), I can place a compressor on that track before it goes to the Stereo Out (2-bus). If I want to compress the entire mix, I place a compressor on the Stereo Out.

Basically thinking of this stuff as a series of water pipes with tees and junctions, valves and spigot's seems like a reasonable way to visualize the flow. This is a pretty simple example - you can get much more complicated, sending busses to busses to busses, for example, creating any series of serial and parallel effects you want.
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Old 05-06-2021, 08:49 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
For most people, recording solo fingerstyle guitar amounts to setting the levels and adding a little reverb. Maybe some minor EQ, maybe some light compression/limiting. With only 1 track, things can be pretty simple!

On the last solo fingerstyle acoustic guitar project I recorded I believe I used 2 u47s and an AEA R88 (stereo ribbon) for a total of 4 tracks.

I like to have options when it comes time to mix. I also have the luxury of a commercial studio with a well stocked mic locker.
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1988 Fender Fretless J Bass
1991 Washburn HB-35s
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1996 Taylor 510c (custom)
1996 Taylor 422-R (Limited Edition)
1997 Taylor 810-WMB (Limited Edition)
1998 Taylor 912c (Custom)
2019 Fender Tele
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  #58  
Old 05-06-2021, 09:15 PM
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On the last solo fingerstyle acoustic guitar project I recorded I believe I used 2 u47s and an AEA R88 (stereo ribbon) for a total of 4 tracks.

I like to have options when it comes time to mix. I also have the luxury of a commercial studio with a well stocked mic locker.
Yep, I typically use 2 pairs, also using an R88 - great choice! I have 3 pairs set up at the moment. Mostly about being able to choose and also blend between them to dial in the tone, kind of an alternative to EQ. It's still pretty simple compared to a band mix. Just blend the mics to taste, add reverb, send to the master bus for a touch of compression.
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Old 05-06-2021, 09:44 PM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
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Victor, maybe this will help. This is a Logic project, showing the mixer view.

Attachment 56162

There are 6 recorded tracks, the 1st 6 columns. All 6 have their outputs (seen in the row labeled "Output") routed to the "Stereo Out". This is what people are calling the "2-bus". Notice that I have plugins on all the individual tracks, and also have a lot of plugins on the Stereo Out, aka 2-bus. The individual track plugins apply just to that track, so whatever that specific track needs, while the plugins on the stereo bus apply to everything - so I think of those as "mastering", final stuff that I want to apply to the entire mix.

As Kev said, the Stereo Out looks like a "track", I can do pretty much anything to it that I can do to a track. Add plugins, change volume, EQ, add automation, so on. But it has no audio of its own recorded on it, it's the the place where all the other tracks go before being sent to playback or mixdown.

I also have "Sends" on most of the tracks - You see labels of Bus 1 and Bus 2. The sound is sort of tee'd off to a bus, which again is like a track, but with no audio of its own, where I can again do anything I want - add plugins, EQ, volume, automation, and so on. The bus output then goes somewhere. In this case, it goes to the Stereo Out, where it gets combined with the other tracks. I have a reverb on each of those busses, and I can control how much of each individual track gets sent to each bus/reverb. Then on the bus itself, I control the over all reverb level. There are also other things going on here, on Bus 1, I have a plugin that itself sends the signal elsewhere - to a hardware output in this case, and captures its return. So this lets me patch in my hardware reverb. It's essentially another "bus" behind the scenes but it acts like an insert and it's a hardware "bus".

If I wanted parallel compression, I can simply send a track to a bus and put a compressor on the bus, then send both to the Stereo Out. Now I have both the raw signal and the compressed signal in parallel, both converging and being blended at the output. If I want to just compress an individual track (not in parallel), I can place a compressor on that track before it goes to the Stereo Out (2-bus). If I want to compress the entire mix, I place a compressor on the Stereo Out.

Basically thinking of this stuff as a series of water pipes with tees and junctions, valves and spigot's seems like a reasonable way to visualize the flow. This is a pretty simple example - you can get much more complicated, sending busses to busses to busses, for example, creating any series of serial and parallel effects you want.
Thanks so much Doug, I think I am beginning to get it now thanks to your explanation and screen shot.
Hmmm? Let me see if I have it somewhat correct by putting it into the simplest of words;
Buss's are for specifically for Parallel use? In your case you have two different reverbs going in your buss/s. So you are parallel reverbing in this example? Your main track dry of course...and the buss track that you send to is Wet?
By Sending the signal to the buss you are in effect in parallel mode? Can it be this simple? I hope so, cause then I got it. Bussing is for Paralleling. Correct or Not?
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  #60  
Old 05-06-2021, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
T
And why I would even for a solo guitar session is because in Pro Tools an "Aux Track" ( 2 -Bus) track all the plugins are pre fader in the signal flow . Where the Master Fader track ( default main stereo output bus) the plugins are post fader
I'm trying to get my head around this too, and after trawling the webz this seems to be key. Many people apparently put their meters and visualization on the master, because they need to be after any final volume changes. Overall mix FX like compression are on a 2-bus because they should be pre-fader. Am I understanding that correctly?

(In fact, I use Reaper which has no post-fader FX at all, master or otherwise, so the ONLY way to get "post-fader" metering of your final mix is to use a 2-bus and send to the master as de facto post-fader of said 2-bus. That may explain some of the difficulty I was having in this thread.)
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