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  #1  
Old 11-29-2019, 10:22 PM
Quickstep192 Quickstep192 is offline
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Default Can I (should I) lower the action on this guitar

Attached are some pictures of my crossover guitar. To me, the action feels high, but as you can see in the picture, there’s virtually no saddle to work with to lower it. I also took a picture with a rule at the 12th fret. Any suggestions are appreciated.

In case it matters, I use Hannabach Custom Low Tension Basses and Knobloch CX Active Medium Tension For 1 & 2 and CX Active Medium-High Tension for the 3rd
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 4045EF3D-3A26-4B13-805C-2DCD03885AD1.jpg (22.1 KB, 125 views)
File Type: jpg DF7E5202-B5B3-4FE8-8265-3B943E0DFDCA.jpg (19.0 KB, 121 views)

Last edited by Quickstep192; 11-29-2019 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 11-30-2019, 03:17 AM
nikpearson nikpearson is offline
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Default Some thoughts...

The action on the low E appears to around 3.7/3.8mm which is a little lower than a typical classical guitar at 4.0mm. You’re right that there’s very little saddle height left, but you do have an excellent break angle over the saddle presumably because you’re using string beads or similar - can’t quite see from the photos.

In some cases you can get the action a little lower on crossover instruments compared with traditional classical guitars where the crossover has an adjustable trussrod. This allows the neck relief to be adjusted, something you can’t do on traditional instruments.

If you instrument has a trussrod you may be able to reduce the relief which will also bring down the action a little. This will depend on the current set up. With this option you can experiment and return the guitar to its current state if it doesn’t work out. To check the relief a capo is helpful: hold down a string the first (with a capo) and body join fret (14th). There should be very small gap between the string and the 6/7th fret. You can check this by tapping the string from above in this area. Tightening the truss rod will reduce this gap; go slowly in 1/8th turns clockwise. You need some neck relief but 0.1-0.2mm usually suffices. The best way to measure this is with a set of feeler gauges. They are inexpensive and useful for lots of tasks.

Having said all that your action is actually perfectly reasonable. Nylon stringed guitars typically need more action than their steel-string counterparts. Another thing to consider is whether you can play with good volume and no buzz now. Slinky action is nice but not at the expense of buzzing, unless you play flamenco!

Hope that helps some.
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Old 11-30-2019, 07:34 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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The playability should be setup to be whatever feels comfortable for you.

Excess relief should be removed from the neck a consequence of which is to bring the strings closer to the frets mid-span of the neck. It should not be used as a method of lowering the strings but, instead, as a method of adjusting the amount of relief. String height at both nut and saddle then control the string height above the frets.

Lowering string height at the nut makes the strings easier to play, most notably, in the first few frets. Lowering the string height at the saddle, largely governs the string height for the rest of the frets. (Fretboard contour also plays a role.)

To lower the string height at the 12th fret, twice as much needs to be removed at the saddle. That is, if you wanted to lower the string height by 1 mm at the 12th fret, the saddle needs to be lowered by 2 mm.

Start by determining how low you want the strings at the 12th fret. Double the difference between what you have now and what you want and that is how much would need to be removed from the saddle. If need be, you could probably remove some from the saddle portion of the bridge to expose more saddle that can then be cut down. It is probably work you'd want to have professionally done.

That said, on true classical guitars, the vertical distance between the guitar top and the bottom of the strings is typically about 11 mm. That gives a target amount of torque on the bridge. Less than that, and you might lose volume. If you play mostly plugged in, that might not matter much to you. I don't know what, if any, target vertical distance there is on a crossover.
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Old 11-30-2019, 08:15 AM
Quickstep192 Quickstep192 is offline
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I should have mentioned this. There is no truss rod, so no adjustment to be had there. It also has a Spanish heel, so no option for a neck reset either. If 3.5 or so at the 12th is normal, I’ll live with it, it just “feels” high compared to my steel string guitars.

To Charles’ point about lowering the string height at the nut - I’d very much like to get easier fretting up there, but I think the nut height is currently spot on. The nut slot bottoms are the same distance from the fretboard as if there were a zero fret. So, is there any room for improvement there?
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Old 11-30-2019, 04:05 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickstep192 View Post
It also has a Spanish heel, so no option for a neck reset either.
I've not heard of a "crossover" with Spanish heel construction. What make is it and what general price range?

There are options for altering the apparent neck angle, just that none of them are "easy". You can "slip the back" or can replace the fingerboard with a tapered one.

What is the vertical string height at the bridge from the guitar top to the bottom of the low E string? Is there any apparent "diving" of the fingerboard into the sound hole (i.e. deformation of the top)? If not, the usual cause for needing a neck reset isn't there. (Yes, the occasional nylon string guitar does need a neck reset.)


Quote:
If 3.5 or so at the 12th is normal, I’ll live with it, it just “feels” high compared to my steel string guitars.
You probably don't need to live with it. You should have it adjusted to whatever is comfortable for you.

Quote:
To Charles’ point about lowering the string height at the nut - I’d very much like to get easier fretting up there, but I think the nut height is currently spot on. The nut slot bottoms are the same distance from the fretboard as if there were a zero fret. So, is there any room for improvement there?
In theory, the string height at the nut should be the same as the height of the frets. In practice, particularly with nylon strings, you might want it a few thousandths of an inch higher, but not more.

How did you determine that the slot bottoms are the same distance from the fretboard as the height of the frets? From what you describe, it doesn't sound likely: it should be easier to play at the first few frets than a steel string.
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Old 11-30-2019, 08:17 PM
Quickstep192 Quickstep192 is offline
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The guitar was made for me by a Canadian luthier named David Freeman. He’s a great guy.

The distance from the top to the underside of the 6th string is about 11.25 mm. There does not appear to be any diving of the soundboard into the sound hole.

I was mistaken about the string bottoms being in the same plane as the fret tops. I saw a line on the nut and assumed he’d drawn it using a half pencil. In fact, the bottom of the 6th string nut slot is maybe .3-.5mm above the plane of the fret tops.
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Old 12-01-2019, 12:00 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickstep192 View Post
I was mistaken about the string bottoms being in the same plane as the fret tops. I saw a line on the nut and assumed he’d drawn it using a half pencil. In fact, the bottom of the 6th string nut slot is maybe .3-.5mm above the plane of the fret tops.
.3 mm is about .010". You should be able to lower that to about .004" or so above the fret plane. If you want, you can probably go lower than that on treble strings, and if you hit them hard, a little higher on the bass strings. That'll make a fair bit of difference in ease of playing near the nut.

It wouldn't be too difficult to lower the saddle by 1 to 2 mm, if you want.
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