Amplified Crossover

[epaul]

My son is in the university choir. During the recent Christmas concert, he used my Taylor GC712 (plugged-in) twice, once in a duet and again while fronting the choir while accompanying himself with a one verse solo. (he is not playing "classical" guitar solos/accompaniments, he is using the guitar to accompany voice with light fingerpicking and some strumming).

My steel-string Taylor sounded fine, but a little thin, and I began thinking that if he were to get more of these "choir" opportunities, a plugged-in nylon 'crossover' guitar might be just the ticket. The guitar's primary use would be amplified through an auditorium house system; simple plug and play, no effects boxes, an up and down one song and then back to the choir type of deal.

Googling revealed lots of appealing choices, with the Yamaha NTX 700, Cordoba Fusion, and Taylor 12e-N drawing particular interest. But, the only one of the three currently within 200 miles of me is the Taylor 12e-N (which might be perfect). Additionally, judging a guitar's plugged-in auditorium tone while listening to it through a small guitar amp in music store isn't easy for me.

The Taylor has a Taylor undersaddle system, the Cordoba has a Fishman undersaddle/mic blend system, and the Yamaha has a couple body sensors under the bridge. I would love to hear some opinions on the relative qualities, pros and cons, of these three guitars' plugged-in tone (to be used in a setting that isn't overly loud but that can not risk feedback).

(the acoustic tone only has to be good enough to make practice enjoyable)

Thanks

[stringman5]

I think you can expect satisfactory performance from all of these instruments. If your son is very accustomed to the feel and playability of your Taylor, then transitioning to the Taylor Academy 12N-e will be seamless.

[Turp]

I agree with Stringman all will likely serve he well.

Your assessment of the steel string is correct, especially if no eq/preamp was used.

I play mostly steel string but am moving to a nylon crossover for solo guitar.

One thing of note on the Yamaha, is the string spacing. Yamaha uses a crossover 48mm nut/neck, but their string spacing places the strings narrower that other crossovers. The significant effect is the E Strings are further from the neck edge than other guitars and the string spacing narrower. It's playable but different. I switched the nut on my Yamaha to widen the spacing to fit the neck.

All are very good. The Cordoba will be more traditional sounding than the Yamaha and Taylor. Although I like my Cordoba, I lean more to playing my Yamaha, and now my Takamine, because they are less traditional Classical sounding which works well with my steel string styled music. You might also look at the Takamine crossovers: TSP148NC, NS P3FCN. I own the TC135SC, but their a little more pricey without being discounted.

I would think the Taylor might be a safe bet, but I have not played one. The only thing I look for on the Taylor is "wolf" notes. This is a odd harmonic on certain fretted notes. I played several that had this as well as a friend had a similar issue on a 214n.

You might also seek out a used 312n or 412n, or the larger 314n or 414n

[Red_Label]

Originally Posted by epaul

My son is in the university choir. During the recent Christmas concert, he used my Taylor GC712 (plugged-in) twice, once in a duet and again while fronting the choir while accompanying himself with a one verse solo. (he is not playing "classical" guitar solos/accompaniments, he is using the guitar to accompany voice with light fingerpicking and some strumming).

My steel-string Taylor sounded fine, but a little thin, and I began thinking that if he were to get more of these "choir" opportunities, a plugged-in nylon 'crossover' guitar might be just the ticket. The guitar's primary use would be amplified through an auditorium house system; simple plug and play, no effects boxes, an up and down one song and then back to the choir type of deal.

Googling revealed lots of appealing choices, with the Yamaha NTX 700, Cordoba Fusion, and Taylor 12e-N drawing particular interest. But, the only one of the three currently within 200 miles of me is the Taylor 12e-N (which might be perfect). Additionally, judging a guitar's plugged-in auditorium tone while listening to it through a small guitar amp in music store isn't easy for me.

The Taylor has a Taylor undersaddle system, the Cordoba has a Fishman undersaddle/mic blend system, and the Yamaha has a couple body sensors under the bridge. I would love to hear some opinions on the relative qualities, pros and cons, of these three guitars' plugged-in tone (to be used in a setting that isn't overly loud but that can not risk feedback).

(the acoustic tone only has to be good enough to make practice enjoyable)

Thanks

I dunno about the Taylor, but the Cordoba will sound better unamplified than the Yamaha. Doesn't mean that the Yamaha can't be played unplugged. But I find their crossovers to sound/respond with all of the personality of a wet log acoustically. Their traditional classicals are great though. I suspect that the Taylor is going to be somewhere between the lively sound/response of the Cordoba and the stifled one of the Yamaha. But no doubt the Yamaha and Taylor are a bit more stoutly built than the Cordoba. Cordobas get their volume, tone, and responsiveness by being built and braced lightly. So if a guitar was going to be primarily for plugged-in performances, and would have to deal with frequent temperature/humidity changes, and maybe handled in less than a delicate manner... then I'd have to say that the Yamaha or Taylor would probably be the better way to go. Doesn't mean that the Cordobas can't take environmental changes or being treated roughly, because I've had 16 of their instruments (most of which have been gigged) and never had any of these issues. But they are definitely more delicately-built instruments on the average. And that lively response is why I prefer them over other sub-$2K brands.

[epaul]

Thanks for the responses.

I have located dealers for all three. I believe I will be able to get a reasonable handle on their playability and sound quality (for practicing purposes if not room projection). But judging the amplified qualities of a guitar in a music store is something that, for me, has proven to be both awkward and not very helpful, for any number of reasons.

So, I will focus my question: Which of the three guitars has the most natural, pleasant and useful amplified sound when used as a "plug and play" into an auditorium house system (no effects boxes; no feedback concerns at moderate and reasonable stage volume levels.)

I have been burned by mic-blend systems in the past, with unexpected feedback erupting from a thought-to-be-safe mic setting, and I have never liked undersaddle pickups alone (without external help from a box)...

which represents my concern with both the Cordoba and the Taylor, that their undersaddles will perform like the undersaddle-alone pickups I gave up on long ago with my steel string guitars.

My questions:

- Does the Cordoba have a good amplified tone and are you able to safely and reliably dial in some of the mic on "non-rock" level piano and choir occupied stages?

-Does the Taylor have a pre-amp that makes its undersaddle pickup work better than those that have been designed for steel string use and stuck in a crossover?

- do undersaddle-alone pickups perform better for nylon guitars than they do for steel string guitars (less quack and brittleness)

- Is the Yamaha system something better than what was before. Is their pickup system, whatever it is, a big improvement, modest improvement or just another approach with its own issues?

[Turp]

Originally Posted by epaul

My questions:
- Does the Cordoba have a good amplified tone and are you able to safely and reliably dial in some of the mic on "non-rock" level piano and choir occupied stages?

My Cordoba has a very good plugged in tone. Mine came only UST equipped.

Originally Posted by epaul

-Does the Taylor have a pre-amp that makes its undersaddle pickup work better than those that have been designed for steel string use and stuck in a crossover?

I don't have any experience with present day Taylor nylon string pickups. I would expect them to be on par with other pick ups.

Originally Posted by epaul

- do undersaddle-alone pickups perform better for nylon guitars than they do for steel string guitars (less quack and brittleness) ?

My impression is UST's in nylon string perform more favorably than steel string, but that is very dependent on the pickup. Taylor proprietary, Fishman, and LR Baggs do fairly well direct in steel strings. Good external preamps really allow the player to dial in the tone much better. UST's sound fuller, especially in the trebles, which is an area where steel strings can sound thin.

As with all, the player's attack on the strings have a significant impact on the tone and "quackiness" of the UST's tone.

Originally Posted by epaul

- Is the Yamaha system something better than what was before. Is their pickup system, whatever it is, a big improvement, modest improvement or just another approach with its own issues?

My Yamaha is an older (early 2000's) model with B-Band. I did some refurbing on mine but it still has the OEM pickup and preamp. I have been pleased with it and was my go to prior to receiving the Takamine. The new Yamaha seem comparable, if not better.

[epaul]

Thanks for the detailed and informative responses. I appreciate it.

I was just thinking of what remarkable bargains these three guitars were when the answer to my enjoyable dilemma occured to me, just buy one of each...

(which still wouldn't reach the half-way point of what I paid for my last steel string

And I think Taylor deserves a tip of the guitar hat for being able to compete at this incredibly accessible entry point with its fine Academy line.

[Greyhound]

For what it’s worth my Taylor academy nylon has a very pleasing natural plugged in sound to my ear...frankly I think it may sound better plugged in than some of higher end TAYLOR nylons. Play one and I think you will be surprised.

[btbliatout]

I don’t think it was brought up yet, so I’ll throw out another option. I have a Yamaha Silent Nylon String Guitar (mine is the SLG200NW which has a wide nut like a classical, the SLG200N has a crossover nut width), and I think it’s perfect for plugged in situations. It’s almost impossible to generate feedback (no sound board), and blending the piezo and simulated mic gives a very gig-worthy sound.

Don’t get me wrong, the serious recording artist will probably find it lacking in a studio setting, and the serious solo performer will never feel like an amped SLG200N will sound as good as a $7k custom luthier-made classical, but it’s darn good in my opinion, and I wouldn’t be shy at all playing mine at a gig.

[Skip Ellis]

Originally Posted by btbliatout

I don’t think it was brought up yet, so I’ll throw out another option. I have a Yamaha Silent Nylon String Guitar (mine is the SLG200NW which has a wide nut like a classical, the SLG200N has a crossover nut width), and I think it’s perfect for plugged in situations. It’s almost impossible to generate feedback (no sound board), and blending the piezo and simulated mic gives a very gig-worthy sound.

Don’t get me wrong, the serious recording artist will probably find it lacking in a studio setting, and the serious solo performer will never feel like an amped SLG200N will sound as good as a $7k custom luthier-made classical, but it’s darn good in my opinion, and I wouldn’t be shy at all playing mine at a gig.

I've investigated these and found them to sound fairly nice and almost pulled the trigger on one but the lack of a way to lower the action (except cutting the saddle) turned me off. My playing is in the Jerry Reed/Chet Atkins/Merle Travis line and requires low action even on a classical. That's why I've decided on the Godin because I can shim the neck to get the action where I want it - just like a Fender.

Didn't mean to go 'off topic' but thought I'd throw that in and suggest that you might want to check out the Godin line if you only care about plugged in sound. IMHO, it's about the best out there except for the very pricey Kirk Sand guitars. They even have a model with a narrower 'electric type' neck.

[epaul]

I went with the Taylor 12e-N.

As it turned out, I didn't even look at the Yamaha or Cordoba. I discovered that a good little guitar shop right here in Grand Forks had a Taylor 12e-N in stock. I checked it out and it was a perfect storm...

- I bonded instantly with the guitar.
- I wanted to buy from this local shop (I have purchased guitars from the Podium, Elderly, Mass Music, Ted, and GC, but never from my local shop).
- I wanted to support Taylor for their good faith effort to produce a quality entry level guitar that could compete against the tide.

I had no urge to look further. The puppy made eye contact with me and it was all over. Instant bond. Game over.

It is an incredibly fun guitar. Very light, very lively, wonderfully smooth neck and frets, and so easy to play. And I love the simple, no-gloss, look.

If the plugged-in sound works, great. If I think something more or different is needed, I'll get a ToneDexter or something. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. Right now, I'm just having fun playing it, the most fun I've had in years. (my kid can get his own guitar, this one is mine )

(well, he's still at home, we can share. Cross that bridge later as well )

[Turp]

Glad to hear you found an instrument you liked. Enjoy!

[epaul]

Thanks!


(I guess I need more characters, so, Happy Holidays All!)