Segovia Diatonic Major and Minor Scales

[Carey]

"..A very famous concert guitarist, whose name is today a household word, was conscripted into the Army. Afraid of losing his technique, he evolved an exercise routine covering the main aspects of playing, which could be completed in forty minutes- the maximum time he felt sure of being able to secure daily without fail. After two years of military service he found that he
had not only maintained his ability to play, but actually improved it.."

-From Noad's 'Solo Guitar Playing I', 1968.

Adding: without taking a position for or against practicing scales proper, this is
a fascinating interview w/ Manuel Barrueco and Eduardo Fernandez, getting a little into that question:

https://www.edufernguitar.com/post/2...anuel-barrueco

[Su_H.]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Does sound very much like just a story. Perhaps a practice motivation device used by your instructor. Assuming it's true the prisoner would probably have improved at playing scales anyway.

Now I'm very curious to find out if this story is true.

I i can't say for sure, but I fondly remember my instructor showing us the article. This was back in 1992 before the internet exploded.

[Su_H.]

Originally Posted by Carey

"..A very famous concert guitarist, whose name is today a household word, was conscripted into the Army. Afraid of losing his technique, he evolved an exercise routine covering the main aspects of playing, which could be completed in forty minutes- the maximum time he felt sure of being able to secure daily without fail. After two years of military service he found that he
had not only maintained his ability to play, but actually improved it.."

-From Noad's 'Solo Guitar Playing I', 1968.

Adding: without taking a position for or against practicing scales proper, this is
a fascinating interview w/ Manuel Barrueco and Eduardo Fernandez, getting a little into that question:

https://www.edufernguitar.com/post/2...anuel-barrueco

Perhaps the story I'm trying to remember is actually the story you have shared.

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by NormanKliman

Please note, I’m not a historian, either, and I’m not trying to pick on you or Segovia. He was obviously one of the greats and I’m sure he was a groundbreaker, but I’d like to see some facts that support that idea.

Well, some facts do exist to support that notion.
Not a historian either, but I recently had some contacts with a well respected authority, luthier R.E. Brune, who has been building guitars since the mid 60s, and has extensively studied and written about the guitar building history from the late 19th and early 20th century. Some fascinating stuff. Here a quote from him specifically about Segovia:
"...The term “classical guitar” referring to a specific genre of musical instrument did not come into common usage until around WWII when Segovia, Vladimir Bobri, Sol Hurok and the New York guitar crowd created this term to distinguish Segovia and his presentations from the other Spanish guitarists who were also competing for bookings in the same large prestigious concert halls. Today we assume this term had always been in usage since the guitar had 6 single strings, but that is not the case at all...."
In a a very interesting 1997 paper/article entitled “The Cultural Origins of the Modern Guitar”, which Brune wrote for Soundboard magazine, and which presents in documented detail the cultural market that gave rise to Torres’ original design (which Tarrega also played), Brune goes on to say that in the late 19th and early 20th century, the lines between "classical" and "flamenco" guitarists really started to distinguish themselves. Flamenco greats like Ramon Montoya and a few others, contemporaries of Segovia, were arguably just as talented artists and showmen as Segovia, if not more, but did little to advance the classical repertoire (i.e. transcribe the keyboard/violin/cello works of masters such as Bach) as much as Segovia did, and pretty much stayed within the European concerting area whereas Segovia took his act world-wide, as indicated above.
And Segovia carried with him a new weapon. A rosewood based guitar from German based luthier Hermann Hauser, who knew nothing about cypress built flamenco guitars being played by the flamenco greats, but studied Segovia's early Torres model guitar and, as Brune put it, "brought a sense of refinement and detail that was entirely appropriate for the modern classical guitar.

So, Segovia's influence in putting "classical guitar" on the map, is really based in historical evidence. At some point, a split occurred and Segovia really stands at the forefront of what we know now to be "classical guitar".
He not only shaped the repertoire, but arguably the design behind what we now call the "Spanish classical guitar".

[Carey]

Miguel Llobet was also a strong earlier link in that chain, I think, though he was a retiring personality compared to Segovia.

[NormanKliman]

Originally Posted by AndreF

Well, some facts do exist to support that notion.
Not a historian either, but I recently had some contacts with a well respected authority, luthier R.E. Brune, who has been building guitars since the mid 60s, and has extensively studied and written about the guitar building history from the late 19th and early 20th century. Some fascinating stuff. Here a quote from him specifically about Segovia:
"...The term “classical guitar” referring to a specific genre of musical instrument did not come into common usage until around WWII when Segovia, Vladimir Bobri, Sol Hurok and the New York guitar crowd created this term to distinguish Segovia and his presentations from the other Spanish guitarists who were also competing for bookings in the same large prestigious concert halls. Today we assume this term had always been in usage since the guitar had 6 single strings, but that is not the case at all...."
In a a very interesting 1997 paper/article entitled “The Cultural Origins of the Modern Guitar”, which Brune wrote for Soundboard magazine, and which presents in documented detail the cultural market that gave rise to Torres’ original design (which Tarrega also played), Brune goes on to say that in the late 19th and early 20th century, the lines between "classical" and "flamenco" guitarists really started to distinguish themselves. Flamenco greats like Ramon Montoya and a few others, contemporaries of Segovia, were arguably just as talented artists and showmen as Segovia, if not more, but did little to advance the classical repertoire (i.e. transcribe the keyboard/violin/cello works of masters such as Bach) as much as Segovia did, and pretty much stayed within the European concerting area whereas Segovia took his act world-wide, as indicated above.
And Segovia carried with him a new weapon. A rosewood based guitar from German based luthier Hermann Hauser, who knew nothing about cypress built flamenco guitars being played by the flamenco greats, but studied Segovia's early Torres model guitar and, as Brune put it, "brought a sense of refinement and detail that was entirely appropriate for the modern classical guitar.

So, Segovia's influence in putting "classical guitar" on the map, is really based in historical evidence. At some point, a split occurred and Segovia really stands at the forefront of what we know now to be "classical guitar".
He not only shaped the repertoire, but arguably the design behind what we now call the "Spanish classical guitar".

Hi Andre,

So, you’re saying his contributions to the guitar are: 1) he was associated with the creation of the term “classical guitar,” 2) he used a new kind of guitar and 3) he was among the few guitarists who transcribed classical works for guitar in the 20th century. Is that right?

[rick-slo]

Nice NYT article

https://www.nytimes.com/1964/02/16/a...0-and-the.html

[Wrighty]

Just to bring us back to the wonderful Segovia scales, I have to admit that they are not easy. First of all one has to learn the correct fingerings on the left hand - this takes me some time. Then one has to navigate the right hand variations. I have made a realisation that I am reasonably steady with alternating I/M and M/I but often go awry when I change strings - which I only realised by making sure I ended on the correct finger, and realising that often I am not!

M/A is not easy and I/A is not happening at all for me right now - I think the right hand patterns will be easier once I am familiar with the left and can park thinking about that.

One way I have found to help is to say the finger name out loud as I play and to emphasise the starting finger by playing the note slightly louder.

Anyway, I can see these are going to occupy me for some time in getting a handle on them, but I do find them strangely addictive up to the point when my brain starts to explode.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

I have to admit that they are not easy.

Yup. That's why you are learning them. If you could already use your fingers as required to play the scales, they wouldn't be of much value.

First of all one has to learn the correct fingerings on the left hand - this takes me some time. Then one has to navigate the right hand variations.

That's why I suggesting adding one new scale per week. That gives some time to learn each one before going on to the next.

I have made a realisation that I am reasonably steady with alternating I/M and M/I but often go awry when I change strings

One of the reasons for practicing them.

M/A is not easy and I/A is not happening at all for me right now - I think the right hand patterns will be easier once I am familiar with the left and can park thinking about that.

Anatomy of human fingers makes the m/a combination more awkward. After sufficient practice both it and I/a combinations become second nature, and you become equally fluent in all of the combinations.

Just wait till you get to slur exercises and the difficulties of doing slurs (aka "hammer-on's" and "pull-off's")with third and fourth fingers of the left hand ...

One way I have found to help is to say the finger name out loud as I play and to emphasise the starting finger by playing the note slightly louder.

That's a good approach.

For some time, you should be playing the scales slowly, ensuring the correct fingers of each hand and preparing and plucking each note.

Anyway, I can see these are going to occupy me for some time in getting a handle on them, but I do find them strangely addictive up to the point when my brain starts to explode.

Depending upon how much you practice them, fluency is often achieved in about 6 months. Speed by about a year or so. At that point, you'll be able to do things that you can't now. The music you play will reflect that in tone and fluidity.

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by NormanKliman

Hi Andre,

So, you’re saying his contributions to the guitar are: 1) he was associated with the creation of the term “classical guitar,” 2) he used a new kind of guitar and 3) he was among the few guitarists who transcribed classical works for guitar in the 20th century. Is that right?

Hi Norm,
I suppose that's the gist of it, although, the manner in which you formulated it would leave me thinking that you don't necessarily agree. Which is totally fine!
I do believe that the historical evidence suggests Segovia was 1) hugely influential in developing the genre that we now refer to as "classical guitar", 2) he greatly influenced the design of the instrument that we now refer to as a traditional classical guitar, i.e. Spanish design a la Torres/Hauser, still going strong today, and 3) he was a trailblazer in significantly broadening the classical guitar repertoire and popularizing music from the early periods which had not been written specifically for guitar, but which turned out to be very idiomatically suited for it. (Bach, Weiss, Scarlatti etc...).

If you had formulated your points this way, I would have been in total agreement with you!

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Yup. That's why you are learning them. If you could already use your fingers as required to play the scales, they wouldn't be of much value.



That's why I suggesting adding one new scale per week. That gives some time to learn each one before going on to the next.



One of the reasons for practicing them.



Anatomy of human fingers makes the m/a combination more awkward. After sufficient practice both it and I/a combinations become second nature, and you become equally fluent in all of the combinations.

Just wait till you get to slur exercises and the difficulties of doing slurs (aka "hammer-on's" and "pull-off's")with third and fourth fingers of the left hand ...



That's a good approach.

For some time, you should be playing the scales slowly, ensuring the correct fingers of each hand and preparing and plucking each note.



Depending upon how much you practice them, fluency is often achieved in about 6 months. Speed by about a year or so. At that point, you'll be able to do things that you can't now. The music you play will reflect that in tone and fluidity.

Yes, I had a feeling you would say that ;-)

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Yup. That's why you are learning them. If you could already use your fingers as required to play the scales, they wouldn't be of much value.
That's why I suggesting adding one new scale per week. That gives some time to learn each one before going on to the next.
One of the reasons for practicing them.
Anatomy of human fingers makes the m/a combination more awkward. After sufficient practice both it and I/a combinations become second nature, and you become equally fluent in all of the combinations.
Just wait till you get to slur exercises and the difficulties of doing slurs (aka "hammer-on's" and "pull-off's")with third and fourth fingers of the left hand ...
That's a good approach.
For some time, you should be playing the scales slowly, ensuring the correct fingers of each hand and preparing and plucking each note.
Depending upon how much you practice them, fluency is often achieved in about 6 months. Speed by about a year or so. At that point, you'll be able to do things that you can't now. The music you play will reflect that in tone and fluidity.

Have you personally worked extensively with these scale exercises and gotten those results in your playing?

[NormanKliman]

Originally Posted by AndreF

Hi Norm,
I suppose that's the gist of it, although, the manner in which you formulated it would leave me thinking that you don't necessarily agree. Which is totally fine!
I do believe that the historical evidence suggests Segovia was 1) hugely influential in developing the genre that we now refer to as "classical guitar", 2) he greatly influenced the design of the instrument that we now refer to as a traditional classical guitar, i.e. Spanish design a la Torres/Hauser, still going strong today, and 3) he was a trailblazer in significantly broadening the classical guitar repertoire and popularizing music from the early periods which had not been written specifically for guitar, but which turned out to be very idiomatically suited for it. (Bach, Weiss, Scarlatti etc...).

If you had formulated your points this way, I would have been in total agreement with you!

Sorry, just being concise. I’d agree with all of that, except maybe the word trailblazer, as there are references to others before him.

Getting back on topic, I agree with the importance of rest strokes and alternating fingers. Certain combinations are especially awkward when moving to a lower-pitched string. With a little work, or a lot, they become easier to play.

I see that the word thumb is absent from this thread. I've always thought of picado as a three-finger technique, with the thumb resting on a string or the top.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Have you personally worked extensively with these scale exercises and gotten those results in your playing?

Yes.

Generally, I don't write about things with which I don't have first-hand experience.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Yes.

Generally, I don't write about things with which I don't have first-hand experience.

Great. That hasn't stopped a lot of other people. I'd like to hear something. Post a recording
you have made of a piece in your repertoire.