A guitar especially for lowered tunings?

[Bob from Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi BB

If you asking the group, on mine I run light/med (1-2-3 light/4-5-6 medium).

Sometimes I bump string #1 up a weight to equalize the tone between strings one and two, especially when I'm playing a lot of backing and melody parts. My middle finger tends to produce a fatter tone on string 2 than my ring finger does on string 1, and bumping the top string a weight equalizes that. That's getting really nit-picky isn't it?

On my Bashkin the light/med sets allow me to easily drop my bass down to Bb or B.

Thanks. Just curious. I have my Breedlove tuned down a full step and it feels a little flabby.

[MC5C]

I built an archtop that is really well suited to lowered tunings - D-D is what I normally keep it at. What made a big difference is having the sound port in the upper bout, instead of normal F-holes. The "air resonance" is around a low F, and the bass response is superior. I think those two things go hand in hand, and I've read that moving the sound port to that area of the top/side is known to lower the resonant frequency.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn Bob

Thanks. Just curious. I have my Breedlove tuned down a full step and it feels a little flabby.

I always (nearly) use "True Mediums" of various kinds. Also sometimes called "DADGAD strings". They have a medium gauge 1st, 2nd, and 6th. In DADGAD that results in the same tension as a light gauge set in standard tuning. The heavier 6th easily accommodates a low C, or being tuned up to standard, so it's a good middle-of-the-road choice for people who use various tunings.

If you know you'll be in a specific lowered tuning, you can get more precise. Martin Simpson, who someone mentioned, has been known to use a 15 for his 1st string. Jon Gomm, who often tunes down to a Bb, uses a custom set with a 68 6th string and 14 on top (all on a standard, albeit "large" Lowden O model).

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn Bob

Thanks. Just curious. I have my Breedlove tuned down a full step and it feels a little flabby.

Hi BB
Have been experimenting with my Olson Dreadnought down a full step and tried Medium (13-56), Medium/Light (Med treble/Light bottom) and Light/Medium (Light trebles/Medium bottom). Like the Light/Medium the best for standard intervals downtuned.

At ½ step down Light gauge with the 1st string bumped up one weight worked fine. And I like the tone ½ step down better than full step down.

[Chriscom]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I tune the 6th string down to D or C on any guitar I own, as do many people. That doesn't need a special guitar, tho you might want slightly heavier strings on the ones you plan to tune down. Once you get down to B or even A, you might be better off with a longer scale - either a baritone, or a fan fretted/multi-scale guitar for better intonation, but its not uncommon to just tune a regular guitar down to at least B or Bb.

Thanks for this. Bravo (really) to those discussing baritone guitars, I always somehow forget they exist. But some of the best songs I wrote years ago are just a fraction out of my comfortable range, and I've been meaning to try this with one of my backup guitars. I tried just tuning down of course, but it was just too flabby. I guess with just one string tuned down with some drop tuning, I don't notice it as much.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Chriscom

Thanks for this. Bravo (really) to those discussing baritone guitars, I always somehow forget they exist. But some of the best songs I wrote years ago are just a fraction out of my comfortable range, and I've been meaning to try this with one of my backup guitars. I tried just tuning down of course, but it was just too flabby. I guess with just one string tuned down with some drop tuning, I don't notice it as much.

So you're talking about tuning the whole guitar down, not just alternate tunings. To tune down the whole guitar a little without being floppy, just go up a gauge in strings. There are string tension calculators out there that can help you figure out what would be an equivalent gauge, but generally, just going from, say lights to mediums overall, should make tuning down a whole step work right. If you want to tune everything down 2 whole steps, you may want to use heavy gauge.

[joeld]

Thanks all, for the insights. This is helpful. A few things I didn't mention regarding my thinking are based on my main guitar a SCGC 000 12 with fancy woods. I like it for its thick deep but not woofy tone with lots of bloom, and its vibrant springy loose feel. It swings between standard, single or double dropped D and maybe DADGAD every time I play it. But low string at C feels floppy and the low notes loose definition, no bite. Also re-tuning more than two strings on the fly gets a bit much for me. That's why I want a dedicated guitar for Orkney and open tunings. And I want a few more accessible frets.

The other guitar I'm drawn to is a SCGC 12-fret cutaway slope-shouldered Dred in Mahogany & Adirondack. That guitar was surely built with bluegrass picking and folk strumming in mind. Kind of the opposite playing style than I like to do. But somehow it's my favorite guitar at Sylvan, my local shop. And if I go that way, I'd be spending more but helping out my local shop and luthiers.

The custom luthier I'm talking to is Steve Denvir. He offers a tremendous value at the moment, and is willing to build a bit non-traditional. The custom build I described above is a mix of my ideas and his suggestions. But obviously I couldn't play it to try it out until it exists.

The non-radiused top was his idea, I think in response to my preference for a looser feel and deeper voice. I had in mind fan frets for a tighter low string, but am a bit afraid of going too far in this direction hence 1/2" of fan. Maybe I'd ask for a bit more if I pull the trigger.

Oh, and 13-fret came from my request for a 12-fret for thicker tone but some issue with how the fan-fret bridge would align with the bracing.

Regarding the tone port, my 000-12 produces a lot of sound but I still find myself tilting it and bending my neck to get my ear a bit more over the top. I'm a home player, no audience, and I want all the tone for myself!

I don't know the details of guitar builds, but I've read that active-back is a build-style that also adds a vibrancy and looser feeling. Some guitars have stiff back to throw the sound out more immediately. But that's knowledge beyond my pay grade.

Last night I was thinking about where I'd want the straight fret. I think the center of my range puts my bar-finger & thumb at the 5th fret, E-form A for example. Of course I'm down in open position often enough and also wander up the neck chasing some melody. But from that I guess I'd want the straight fret to be the 5th?

ljguitar, that Bashkin is is magnificent! I'd be overjoyed if a guitar like that lived at my house. Rock on, everybody! /jd

[Doug Young]

Is that SGGC short scale? That can be a bit more of an issue, since you're at a lower tension to start with.

Have you tried any of the typical DADGAD sets? Pearse New Mediums, D'Addario EJ24s, GHS New Mediums, etc. They should be perfect for what you're describing. I go from standard to Orkney all the time with them, no issues. Guitars with longer scale length may be slightly helpful. For example, my Ryan is 25.7 scale length, and it might do slightly better with low C than others.

It kind of sounds like you're just hoping to get a new guitar :-) Nothing wrong with that...

[joeld]

My 000 is 25.4". I've tried the shorter scale ones, which do sound good, but not as crisp as I prefer I guess.

Yep, must... have... new... guitar... I think I've got some clear and reasonable goals in mind though. I'd love to try a Ryan someday.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by joeld

…Last night I was thinking about where I'd want the straight fret. I think the center of my range puts my bar-finger & thumb at the 5th fret, E-form A for example. Of course I'm down in open position often enough and also wander up the neck chasing some melody. But from that I guess I'd want the straight fret to be the 5th?

ljguitar, that Bashkin is is magnificent! I'd be overjoyed if a guitar like that lived at my house. Rock on, everybody! /jd

Hi joeld

If the total offset is divided in half (¾" offset means ⅜" tilt at each end) the perpendicular fret wire ends up around/between the 8th and 9th fret.

For players who keep the headstock elevated at least chin high, the angle of the fretting hand naturally shifts in the direction of the fan at that point without even thinking about it. This is why a ¾" offset is pretty invisible.

But an experienced builder who has a lot of fanned frets under their belt could set the shift point to wherever you want. It's much more dependent (for me) where my elbow hangs naturally which is mid-neck.

Keeping the headstock chin high with the fretting arm relaxed means the elbow is closer to the body, and acts as the pivot point between the ends of the fingerboard.

[gfspencer]

Originally Posted by Dhouse335

Any good builders you can suggest? I see a used Froggy... but I am still recovering from other purchases...

Thanks

My baritone 12-string is a Martin Pete Seeger. They're hard to find now.

[darylcrisp]

look around and see if you can find a 0000 size martin jumbo shape to play, or one of the breedlove jumbos(ed Gerhard models), these are thin depth but jumbo size, easy to sit and play since the depth is more shallow, the jumbo shape waist fits well when seated, and all these sound really nice tuned low as you have mentioned. Ed Gerhard lives in dropped tunings and does go into C on many.

rob Calcutta had a bourgeois Martin Simpson model in the classifieds of late, these are amazing and it was built around use for lots of alternate/dropped tunings.
https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=581383
https://reverb.com/item/33687472-bou...impson-natural

[Dhouse335]

Originally Posted by darylcrisp

look around and see if you can find a 0000 size martin jumbo shape to play, or one of the breedlove jumbos(ed Gerhard models), these are thin depth but jumbo size, easy to sit and play since the depth is more shallow, the jumbo shape waist fits well when seated, and all these sound really nice tuned low as you have mentioned. Ed Gerhard lives in dropped tunings and does go into C on many.

rob Calcutta had a bourgeois Martin Simpson model in the classifieds of late, these are amazing and it was built around use for lots of alternate/dropped tunings.
https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=581383
https://reverb.com/item/33687472-bou...impson-natural

I just acquired a Froggy Bottom Model J from 1980. It has a 17" bout but only 4 inches of depth... similar to the 0000 you discuss. I completely agree it does great with lowered tunings. I have had it in Open D, but it has plenty of tension. For my playing it has a sound that starts to perform with lowered tunings.

It's interesting 3 months ago, I wasn't on the hunt for guitars to play lower tunings... I wound up with two exceptional guitars that just so happen to be designed or excel with lower tunings.

The result has been very inspiring and allowed a creative boost that has been a lot of fun. I had always played bigger acoustics in standard or half step. Now I have a whole new world of song writing opened up to me...

I really suggest anyone in a creative rut go down a path like this...

[s2y]

I think D sounds fine in 25.5" scale most of the time. C can sometimes benefit from longer scale length, but you can also experiment with string gauges. I tend to keep a guitar in dropped D, DADGAD, and standard. I'm in the process of getting a fanned fret for C tuning.

[joeld]

Thanks for all the great advice! I was sorely tempted by that Bourgeois Martin Simpson model, that looks like a really nice guitar. And I suppose if I were really serious about lowered tunings, I'd go for a baritone. But in the end I decided to pull the trigger on the custom build, with 26" - 25.4" multiscale. I like the idea of being able to specify any big or small detail that I might care about. Well, here starts about five months of anticipation! Cheers, All!