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  #46  
Old 02-08-2010, 06:45 PM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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I had an answer for that but I feel as though I would be repeating myself as fall into the same category.
  #47  
Old 02-08-2010, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by BoB/335 View Post
Any of y'all have real, on the ground, gigging experience comparing the two: small amps vs line array?
I don't.

However, one thing has become clear in this discussion. Even those who have had 'real' experiences of the two - or whichever other combinations are thrown into the mix - are capable of coming to well-reasoned, but entirely different conclusions.

Clearly, there's no definitive answer - everyone's needs and situations are sufficiently different that there probably isn't a Holy Grail. You can get an idea from reading about those experiences, but until you actually try it yourself, it's just speculation.
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  #48  
Old 02-08-2010, 07:43 PM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
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Originally Posted by Herb Hunter View Post

The original point of contention was your claim that the Compact is not a line array. Because, you said, the array drivers were not on the same plane (you also said the driver compliment was too low). When I pointed out that neither were the Model II drivers, your reply was that "after hanging out on the Bose forum for a while, there seems to be a wide consensus that vII is just as much a line array as vI". In other words, forum consensus determines whether a system is a line array or not. Whatever the forum consensus on the Compact, Bose is calling the Compact a line array.
Herb, I'm getting off this ride.

First though, something I should have pointed out early on is that I'm no expert on line arrays. I've picked up a few things because of my interest in them, but I've been waiting for someone who really knows what they're talking about to step up. It hasn't happened so far.

The reason I brought up the Bose forum is that it's a good place to look for people arguing about the relative merits of the different systems. It's sort of like here, but focused on Bose products and with a lot of people who have actual hands-on experience.

From what i found, the Compact is not regarded as a line array. Don't argue with me on that, argue with them. Maybe the Bose users are wrong.

One of the things I was looking for (my interest in the Compact didn't start until later, after I heard Kramster's test) was if there was a difference between the two full sticks. Like you, I thought maybe the alternating angles on the L1 v.2 would negate it's line array qualities. But I found nothing at all to that effect. The benefits of v.1, according to the users of the systems, were it's lower price and the extra channels & controls in the bigger base. There was nothing about better sound projection.

So, to answer your sarcastic remark -- No, widespread consensus doesn't make a line array. Engineers do that. But the widespread consensus among actual users seems to be that both full sticks are line arrays.
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  #49  
Old 02-08-2010, 08:12 PM
Aaron Smith Aaron Smith is offline
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Originally Posted by Larry Pattis View Post
...because there continues to be misunderstandings about how the supposed "line array" gear may function, based on the visual similarities but possible functional differences.

I'm glad that you have followed the threads (and comments) well enough to know what some of us are going to say, however, if incorrect information is repeated often enough, then the facts can become rather blurry.

I like to provide clarity, when possible.
Larry, I don't think anyone's disputing your claim that the SoloAmp and the Bag Amp are different, or even that the Bag Amp behaves more like a line array. My point is that, whatever you want to call it, the SoloAmp is still a very different animal from the usual 1 or 2 driver amp.
The whole single point vs. line array debate isn't binary. There is a spectrum of designs between those two endpoints. The ideal line array would have infinite height, zero width, and infinitely small drivers. The SoloAmp may be further away from that ideal, but it's design is closer to that endpoint than a single-point design.
I appreciate the fact that you have used both and prefer the BA. That's the info that I think the OP was looking for. I have not tried the BA, but I do use the SoloAmp and have found it to be quite different from traditional amp designs.
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Last edited by Aaron Smith; 02-08-2010 at 08:18 PM.
  #50  
Old 02-08-2010, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post
Larry, I don't think anyone's disputing your claim that the SoloAmp and the Bag Amp are different.

Actually, in past threads this has been at issue, and folks still seem to think of comparing the three products (SoloAmp, BagAmp & Bose products) directly, as if they were perfectly equivalent products.

One can certainly test them all against the other, and it's valid to do so...but *your* understanding of the differences are not everyone's understanding.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post
My point is that, whatever you want to call it, the SoloAmp is still a very different animal from the usual 1 or 2 driver amp.

I agree completely.


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Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post
The whole single point vs. line array debate isn't binary. There is a spectrum of designs between those two endpoints.
I appreciate the fact that you have used both and prefer the BA. That's the info that I think the OP was looking for. I have not tried the BA, but I do use the SoloAmp and have found it to be quite different from traditional amp designs.

Again, I agree...and I think it's good to think of these products on a spectrum, rather than as exactly equivalent products. Thank you for this good analogy.

I went directly from a high-quality rack-space/component PA to the Bose L1 (and then to a Model II), so I do not have much experience with the kind of "amp" in question. Downsizing even further (from the Model II) for some gigs makes a lot of sense for me, and while I have always been a supporter of Fishman (as a retailer and as a musician), the SA did fall short in that one very important category for me.

I think the SoloAmp is a terrific piece of gear, in the right hands, and under the right circumstances...like *all* well-made gear!

I was also a retailer for Lou Hinckley/Daedalus, and I am a fan of his equipment...but I don't consider his fine equipment when looking at this particular kind of thread...portable, lightweight, and quite a different price point compared to the Daedalus gear...it even leaves out the L1 (price-wise), and I also admit to having zero experience with the Compact.

Just as with the plethora of super-fine guitars right now, we are also living in a time with new and innovative amplification gear, and I am quite pleased with *all* the choices we have as players and performers...
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Last edited by Larry Pattis; 02-08-2010 at 08:49 PM.
  #51  
Old 02-08-2010, 08:48 PM
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Maybe I'd better qualify or retract what I said earlier.

I still think the Bose forum is a good source of information. Although Bose is notoriously stingy with specs, they do provide straight answers to straight questions on the forums. Sometimes.

Take a look at the first page of this thread. Last April, the OP asked "I'm already hearing a lot of what I take to be misinformation. It looks to me like the L1 Compact is a true line array but I've heard people say that it isn't so I'd like to confirm that it is...."

http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/.../745104421/p/1

From what I can see, the Bose employees dodged this question on the first page. It was responses (or non-responses) like these that helped me form the opinion that Compacts are not line arrays. Also note that as of April last year, Compacts had not been released for sale, so fellow users could not chime in.

Anyway, I didn't have the patience to read through the entire thread, but instead skipped to the last page. Check out the second to last post where someone asked

"It has been about 10 months since I asked the question, is the Compact a true line array. Currently, at the Acoustic Guitar Forum people continue to insist that it is not, this time the reason being that the vertically arranged speakers are not all mounted on the same plane. It seems to me that what defines a line array, apart from the vertical arrangement of the speakers, is the rate at which volume drops off with distance. If the Compact's volume drop off rate is lower than that of a conventional speaker arrangement, then the Compact is a true line array.

So, again, to clarify the matter once and for all, is the Compact a true line array?"


(Geez, I hope he wasn't talking about me.)

The response to the question is right below that and the Compact user (I think he is) feels that the Compact is a line array.

http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/.../745104421/p/5

I've gotten involved in some of these threads here because some people had made incorrect statements about the BA, and I wanted to set things straight.

I may have gotten in over my head on the Compact though, and misrepresented it.

Sorry.

For the record, let me say that I don't know if the Bose Compact is considered a line array or not. I think I'll just keep my mouth shut on that one in the future.
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  #52  
Old 02-08-2010, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by FingerPlucked View Post
Maybe I'd better qualify or retract what I said earlier.

I still think the Bose forum is a good source of information. Although Bose is notoriously stingy with specs, they do provide straight answers to straight questions on the forums. Sometimes.

Perhaps this has been mentioned...but perhaps not.

The Bose forum has actual Bose employees there, answering some questions.

You can get consensus information from many users, and you can also get specific information from Bose.

This underlies what Jim is saying about information from that group.
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  #53  
Old 02-08-2010, 10:53 PM
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Late response to the original question:
I have the BagAmp and a small UltraSound. I like the Ultra for what it is. Very nice sound. Useful to me in certain specific situations. I LOVE the BagAmp. With an added front end DI/preamp, it is, IMHO, the best sounding acoustic guitar amp (sorry Jack; I know that you don't want it branded that way!) I'll be using it at a wedding in a couple of weeks in a VERY "wet" church. That will be challenging and interesting.

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  #54  
Old 02-09-2010, 05:22 AM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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Originally Posted by FingerPlucked View Post
...Like you, I thought maybe the alternating angles on the L1 v.2 would negate it's line array qualities. But I found nothing at all to that effect. The benefits of v.1, according to the users of the systems, were it's lower price and the extra channels & controls in the bigger base. There was nothing about better sound projection.

So, to answer your sarcastic remark -- No, widespread consensus doesn't make a line array. Engineers do that. But the widespread consensus among actual users seems to be that both full sticks are line arrays.
I intended no sarcasm and regret that I worded my post in such a way that you would interpret it as such. I was simply trying to illustrate what I saw as a flaw in your argument.

A point of clarification: I never doubted that the Model II was a line array. I brought up its articulated array to refute the argument that the Compact was not an array because of the angling of its drivers.

Last edited by Herb Hunter; 02-09-2010 at 05:52 AM. Reason: Typographical mistake
  #55  
Old 02-09-2010, 06:57 AM
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I confess that I am not knowledgeable enough to participate in discussions of the technical side of the issue at hand. However, I think that sometimes we get a bit distracted by all the technical stuff.

As I understand it, when it comes to choosing an amplification method, there are several factors to be considered. In no certain order, these include:
* Tone
* Power
* Dispersion
* Features
* Convenience
* Price

There are probably other factors and different ways to word these, but perhaps that's enough for now. With those different factors in mind, everyone's needs and interests are different, so what's "best" for different people can vary a great deal.

One person focuses on the best tone, with multiple channels and features, and doesn't mind the additional expense, weight and complexity necessary to obtain it. His choice for amplification will be different from...

Another, for whom convenience and dispersion are the key factors. He needs fewer channels and features that outboard equipment can bring, and would like to keep his total cost under $3,000, so his choice will be different from...

A third person, for whom a simple, dual channel box with a nice sound but limited power and dispersion; something that can be used alone in a small setting or as a stage monitor in conjunction with a house PA; something that puts his cost closer to $1,000, or even $500.

There are countless other combinations of needs and preferences when it comes to amplification, just as when it comes to choosing the "right" guitar or strings. I think we sometimes lose sight of that. We know that different guitars suit different people, but seem to spend an inordinate amount of time discussing which amplification system is "best." At least that's my impression.

As with guitars, the "best" amplification system is the one that fits you best, regardless of how well that system might fit the next guy.

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  #56  
Old 02-09-2010, 07:05 AM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
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I just checked on that second link. There are additional responses. This one's from Ken at Bose:

Quote:
I don't think there is a definitive answer to this question because there is no definitive definition that I know of.

In a purely colloquial sense, I would say that the Classic, Model I and Model II are a whole lotta line array (4 meters, or 14 feet and straight if you include the mirror image caused by the floor) and the L1 Compact is a little bit of a line array.
Make of that what you will. I'm going to stick with my last post; since I don't really know, it's not my place to try to proclaim the Compact as an array or a non-array. They sound good, I know that much.

You probably wouldn't guess it from my comments in this thread, but I don't think the line array issue is the top priority in choosing a system. What I want (and found in the BA) is a combination of good sound, power or coverage, flexibility, schleppability, and affordability. The fact that the BA is also a line array is just icing on the cake. But in itself, it would not make me choose this or any other amp or PA.
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  #57  
Old 02-09-2010, 07:07 AM
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Cotten, I was typing while you were posting. I agree completely.
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  #58  
Old 02-09-2010, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by FingerPlucked View Post
You probably wouldn't guess it from my comments in this thread, but I don't think the line array issue is the top priority in choosing a system. What I want (and found in the BA) is a combination of good sound, power or coverage, flexibility, schleppability, and affordability. The fact that the BA is also a line array is just icing on the cake. But in itself, it would not make me choose this or any other amp or PA.
Geeeeeeeeeeeee! That's what I've been trying to say quite a few times in this one thread. The OP asked a simple question regarding the contenders in the "so-called line-array" arena. Everyone knows darn well what he was asking. He wanted to know real world experience and application compared to a small acoustic amp and was not asking what scientifically defines a line-array. He starts off by saying "I've been following the line array discussions for awhile now and feel I have as good a grip on the different units as I can get without ever really having a chance to hear one". No doubt he has read all these arguments before. (How could he help but have read them because the same thing comes up in EVERY thread)
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Old 02-09-2010, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by FingerPlucked View Post
I just checked on that second link. There are additional responses. This one's from Ken at Bose:

Quote:
I don't think there is a definitive answer to this question because there is no definitive definition that I know of.

In a purely colloquial sense, I would say that the Classic, Model I and Model II are a whole lotta line array (4 meters, or 14 feet and straight if you include the mirror image caused by the floor) and the L1 Compact is a little bit of a line array.
Make of that what you will. I'm going to stick with my last post; since I don't really know, it's not my place to try to proclaim the Compact as an array or a non-array. They sound good, I know that much. ...
Earlier, I posted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Hunter View Post
To me, what defines a line array, apart from the vertical arrangement of the speakers, is the rate at which volume falls off with distance. If the Compact's volume drop off rate is not better than that of the SoloAmp, then I'll have to concede that you are right.
Based on the latest post by that Bose employee at the Bose forum, it is beginning to look like I may have to concede that you were right. (I'm waiting for one more reply from Ken.)
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Old 02-09-2010, 08:20 AM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
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Based on the latest post by that Bose employee at the Bose forum, it is beginning to look like I may have to concede that you were right. (I'm waiting for one more reply from Ken.)
By my own standards, I don't get to be right no matter what Ken says. Earlier in this thread I said that the Compact is not a line array. I thought I was stating a fact. Based on what I found last night, I realized that I was only stating my opinion or interpretation of the info that I had found, and that it was not a definitive, black & white answer.

Maybe the Compact is a line array. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's somewhere in a grey area and is a "line-ish array". Whatever it is, I'm not the guy to make the call. I have no real first hand experience with the Compact, and I'm not an engineer with the qualifications to tell anyone what constitutes a line array and what does not.

If Ken comes back and says that the Compact is not a line array, you can call me a lucky guesser. But I don't think that qualifies me as being right -- I would have arrived at the right conclusion by the wrong methods.
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