Dual Source - K&K PWM and ? - No microphones

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

I'm serious about them not being that concerned with live music. They just want good music and people actually hear with their brains as much as their ears, so they compensate and adapt to what we picky players consider less-than-perfect sound very quickly.
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I agree completely. I once played a gig with a failing battery (no more batteries anywhere in the signal chain for me ) and it was the longest gig I ever suffered through. I was simply mortified by the sound. After the gig, however, folks came up to me and told me how great I sounded.

The lesson I learned is that it is all about getting a sound I really like in order to allow me to play at my best.
Steve

[TerryAllanHall]

My duo source is a JJB (same exact SBT as the K&K @ less than 1/2 the price), directly between and behind the Low E and A pegs on the bridgeplate, and a passive UST, wired together 50/50 and plugged into a Baggs PADI...this is the ONLY p/u rig that I've ever plugged directly into the recording board and gotten a very acceptably "natural" sound...not as accurate as a excellent condenser mic, of course, merely extremely acceptable. putting one track of mic'd and one track w/ this duo source makes for some great sounding recordings.

Got this set-up in 5 Guilds, 2 Taylors, a Gibson and a ? gutstring, and they all sound great, live or recorded.

[guitaniac]

Hi Terry,

It sounds like you've wired together the ceramic piezo equivalent of PUTW's wired-in-parallel film piezo "Dynamic Duo". I recall David Enke once saying that it might work pretty well to wire one of the K&K SBTs in parallel with a ceramic piezo UST (like a Fishman AG series UST or the DTAR "Sadducer" UST). It sounds like you've done something like that - if the two pickups are wired in parallel (as opposed to taking the two separate signals stereo out to an outboard blender). Is it correct that you're using the wired-in-parallel arrangement (both pickup hot leads wired to the strap-jack's tip contact)?

Thanks for any further clarification.
Gary

[localguitarist]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi EC…
And differences in playing style. Three people can play the same guitar and get three sounds from it because of differences in technique.

Actually all the tweaking is to make me happier, because the audience is not that worried about the tone of my guitar as long as it sounds like a guitar. It only bothers them if it sounds like a piano…or a clarinet.

I'm serious about them not being that concerned with live music. They just want good music and people actually hear with their brains as much as their ears, so they compensate and adapt to what we picky players consider less-than-perfect sound very quickly.

Recorded music is different, because they tend to listen and become analytical because of repeated exposure to the same pieces, whereas live, unless it's harsh and ugly sounding, they just adapt and get into the music.

Nice explanation. You lost me until the difference between live and recorded music. I've never thought of it like that. I do find that the cleaner sound you can find the happier guitar playing listeners will be in the audience That can earn you miles of respect and hours of shop talk after the show. Although if the music sucks no perfection of sound can make up for that.

BTW to answer the original thread I use my PWM with K&K UST. I use a trinity dual source on board preamp. through my effects and then into my amp rig. I like it. Although I now add a third source K&K meridian mic (only when playing solo). With my luck I've found that the PWM does lack in beefy low end on my Lowden super jumbo (which I know does not make much sense). I haven't tried a mag pickup although I'd love to.

[ShinyBeast]

Bump.

I'm interested in this as well--I will mainly be using just the PWM, but would like to have a UST for additional flexibility.

Any other UST recommendations to be paired with a PWM? I have the K&K external pre-amp already.

Also, will a thinner UST have less effect on the unamplified tone of the guitar? If so, what are some of the thinner USTs out there?

[Rick Jones]

The K&K will provide a lot of bottome end, no doubt....the reason I get my bottom end from the mag and not use the K&K's ample bass is simply because I don't get as much feedback this way.
The mag is much more resistant to having those low frequencies in the air around it, whereas the K&K will loop it back through the soundboard.
In quieter settings I will use both pickups full range, and enjoy the richness of the bass, but a good sounding compromise at my chosen volume is lows from the mag and upper end from the K&K and/or mic.

[rockabilly69]

DiMarzio Angel and The K&K, then to a Dtar Soltice. I'm getting great results with this setup!

[tdrake]

I've been running the PWM via different DIs and preamps etc, into different speakers/amps etc, for about 8 years and am also ready to improve on it.

I'm curious as to why you are ruling out an internal mic, but only ask because I'm weighing the same options. We tend to play relatively loudly and I like to move around the stage, so I'm trying to figure out whether that eliminates a mic as the second source for me, as well.

Years ago I paired with a Rare Earth humbucker but that weight hanging on the top *definitely* clogged my natural tone (on an OM-sized Larrivee).

The options are staggering and, I must admit, I enter into this fray about once a year and then am stunned back into thinking the PWM is fine solo. Would sure like to improve on it, tho, without creating a whole other set of hassles.

td

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by tdrake

...I'm curious as to why you are ruling out an internal mic, but only ask because I'm weighing the same options. We tend to play relatively loudly and I like to move around the stage, so I'm trying to figure out whether that eliminates a mic as the second source for me, as well.

Hi td…
If you are going to run the guitar into a hot floor monitor in front of you, the mic will bring issues to the party...especially on aggressive stages.

I run dual source K&K rigs in all 4 of my guitars, and simply run an UltraSound AG-50 behind me on an X-stand (for keyboards) so it's up in the air above waist high feeding my monitor from behind.

We are part of a church that meets in a home and the 12'' two way main speaker is flown behind and above me about 3 feet away (only 8 foot ceilings) and we run it hot, and my internal mic is always louder in the mix than the pickup - and we don't suffer from feedback.

I think a mic always brings a good second option to the sound mix over undersaddle or magnetic, but almost always two controllable sources will improve sound over a single source.

This thread is fairly old, so a lot of the feedback goes back a ways, but the topic is a good one to think about.

[tdrake]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi td…
If you are going to run the guitar into a hot floor monitor in front of you, the mic will bring issues to the party...especially on aggressive stages.

I run dual source K&K rigs in all 4 of my guitars, and simply run an UltraSound AG-50 behind me on an X-stand (for keyboards) so it's up in the air above waist high feeding my monitor from behind.

We are part of a church that meets in a home and the 12'' two way main speaker is flown behind and above me about 3 feet away (only 8 foot ceilings) and we run it hot, and my internal mic is always louder in the mix than the pickup - and we don't suffer from feedback.

I think a mic always brings a good second option to the sound mix over undersaddle or magnetic, but almost always two controllable sources will improve sound over a single source.

This thread is fairly old, so a lot of the feedback goes back a ways, but the topic is a good one to think about.

Thanks for the response. I should have noted that I'm mainly using my SA 220, behind me, so much like your amps.

This weekend, however, we did play two separate venues that provided PA, with decent floor monitors up front, but that's the exception for us. Glossing thru these threads, tho, it looks like some folks split the signal and keep the mic out of the monitors to avoid that feedback issue.

I should also note that I really like the sound of the PWM for fingerpicking, and if that's all I did, I'd be content, but I lose something when I strum aggressively, and when I perform live I'm pretty hamfisted.

Lastly, I think I've gathered from your other posts that you are using stock K&K internal mics as that second, mic, source (vs another mic brand), and you are happy with them. Is that correct?

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by tdrake

...I should also note that I really like the sound of the PWM for fingerpicking, and if that's all I did, I'd be content, but I lose something when I strum aggressively, and when I perform live I'm pretty hamfisted.
...Lastly, I think I've gathered from your other posts that you are using stock K&K internal mics as that second, mic, source (vs another mic brand), and you are happy with them. Is that correct?

Hi td…
I don't separate the mic from the pickup in the monitor. I just don't allow sound techs to put my guitar through the monitor in front of me at all. It will feed back just as fast from the 'mini' part of the rig as from the mic.

I do use stock K&K dual source rigs.

I don't know what to recommend for the strumming as there are no examples of what you are trying to describe (''loses something'' doesn't give clues as to what it loses).

I think many pickups don't respond as well to overly hard strumming. Well, the mag pickups do ok with it.

[tdrake]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

I don't know what to recommend for the strumming as there are no examples of what you are trying to describe (''loses something'' doesn't give clues as to what it loses).

I think many pickups don't respond as well to overly hard strumming. Well, the mag pickups do ok with it.

What, you can't simply intuit what "loses something" means?? Speaking of tone is, as they say, like dancing to architecture...or whatever it is they say (and whoever it is "they" are, I suppose).

I would describe the offending tone I get with aggressive strumming as "brittle harshness". Or, put another way, it just don't sound real good.

I've gathered elsewhere that, yes, many pickups don't respond well to aggressive strumming, and I vaguely recall an actual engineering/physics-based explanation largely over my head. My fear is that I'll run into a similar issue with an internal mic, not necessarily for the same reason or with the same actual result, but in the mic's case maybe "boominess".

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by tdrake

...My fear is that I'll run into a similar issue with an internal mic, not necessarily for the same reason or with the same actual result, but in the mic's case maybe "boominess".

Hi td…
Good concerns.

I use the tone controls on the preamp to compensate for both the mic and pickup, but have no boom issues from the mic on any of my 4 guitars (Dread, mini-jumbo, 2-OMs). The tone of the mic is only going to reflect what it's hearing. Unless you actual strumming is making the guitar sound harsh, that won't likely be reflected by the mic.

On my guitars any feedback that starts nibbling at the edges is in the upper-mids not the bass...except for one outdoor 'Plaza' gig where the tech wanted to push the bass into 4 massive double sub-woofers.

I'm not sure which part of my rig caused his issue, but I just trimmed the bass a little on both channels and put a feedback buster into the soundhole and was good to go.

He was used to full bands, and not acoustic duos and wanted to pump the bass for the ''feel''. We weren't on the same page, but worked it out...

As a teacher, I'd suggest by moderating your strumming technique and pick placement and weight you might be able to improve your strumming sound substantially. A pickup doesn't need us to do it's work. It can produce tons of volume without me playing too loudly.

[tdrake]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

As a teacher, I'd suggest by moderating your strumming technique and pick placement and weight you might be able to improve your strumming sound substantially. A pickup doesn't need us to do it's work. It can produce tons of volume without me playing too loudly.

Yeah, I understand your point about changing my approach etc, and you are not the first to, correctly, bring that to my attention (on these boards, that is; I think my style makes more sense to those who see it). I do generally like the acoustic (unamplified) tone I generate with my style, but an element of the "issue" is that I play an OM guitar like it was a big ol' Martin dread...or perhaps a "softer" toned Gibson J-sized instrument; the Larrivee's somewhat heavier bracing and its rosewood back/sides helps moderate my style to a large degree, as well, but ultimately, to paraphrase Neil Young, "that's my sound, man" ...less vaguely, I mean, bringing a lot of physical energy to the song and the stage is simply who I am.

This may show what I can't explain: http://www.youtube.com/user/bingotwa.../1/Bd2laiFwWoc (the distortion is from the camera, not our actual live sound )

And yes, a lighter pick (Martin mediums) also help, and I already play back by the bridge as a holdover from Tele pickin'.

And of course I'm only speaking of certain songs where this style works best but affects the amplified tone, but your points are still well taken.

Related to all this, we had the good fortune to see The Punch Brothers during the Calgary Folk Fest a couple weeks ago, and Chris Eldridge's tone was to die for and their wireless setups allowed lots of stage mobility. They all, apparently, just use Lavalier style mics, but they also travel with a pro sound guy etc. Still, it was impressive to hear such fine tone. ...then, this past weekend we played a local "bluegrass festival" (with few actual bluegrass acts) and the difference between those playing with actual mics vs. pickups really hit me over the head (the mics sounding so much better) and yet, and yet, for those of us who play in loud cafes, without someone running sound, mics just seem a nightmare.

Anyway, those are the experiences that led me back into this quest. Once again.... Looking for that happy middle ground that gives somewhat better tone but still the ease and mobility of pickups etc.

Thanks much for your feedback.