12 / 14 fret Guitars

[NY Deadhead]

I'm sure this is going to qualify me as a noob, but what is the difference bet. a 12fret and a 14 fret guitar? But I was always told there are no stupid question's.

[warfrat73]

Well, the obvious thing is the number of frets clear of the body.

The less obvious thing is that on 12 fret guitars the bridge gets shifted lower on the soundboard into what some people consider the sweet spot for resonance and responsiveness.

[Pattern]

Only stupid answers: One has twelve frets, t’other has 14.

Lol I don’t know what all results from the difference but number just describes how many frets you have before the neck reaches the body of the guitar.

I’m guessing 12 frets are shorter. Or standard-ish length with more space in between? I’m curious too

[hubcapsc]

I think the upper bout is bigger on my 12 fret...



-Mike "bigger than it otherwise would have been?"

[jazzereh]

My first thought was 'is this a troll thread?'

Ok so the 12 fret is two frets shorter to the body. The neck length is shorter because of that. The bridge is typically located more central on the top as noted above. Body dimensions depend on the style of the guitar. And other stuff....

[The Bard Rocks]

Originally Posted by hubcapsc

I think the upper bout is bigger on my 12 fret...



-Mike "bigger than it otherwise would have been?"

Yes, 12 fret guitars tend to have a less squared-off upper bout. I prefer the looks of that better, but like the extra 2 frets.

[JonWint]

One difference is body proportion. 12-fret in red.

[IMG][/IMG]

[Misifus]

Typically, there are two approaches to the difference between 12 and 14 guitars. One, the one JonWint so clearly illustrates above, is to shape the bodies differently. When Martin introduced the 14 body, they shaped the body differently to allow 14 frets clear of the body, rather than the 12 which was traditional. Thus, the bridge remained in the same place it had always been. The other approach to create a 12 fret example based on a previous 14 fret is, as has been said, to move the bridge further down the lower bout. This is the approach Jamie Kinscherff took in creating my twelve fret.

Theoretically, the latter approach might have some affect on tone. However, when my Kinscherff 12 fret was built, at the same time, Jamie was building a 14 fret model identical to mine in every detail, except the number of frets free of the body for a friend of mine. A year after receiving both guitars, we sat down in a quiet room to compare the two. After more than an hour, neither of us could hear any difference in the two.

My point in the last paragraph is simply that theoretical differences don’t alway produce audible differences. Theoretically, adding a cutaway should affect the time, but I’ve never heard such a difference. Theory is great, but you can’t always hear what you expect.

[whvick]

https://youtu.be/kfpMciG92oY
An excellent guitarist and performer and the resident expert on 12 frets. There are one or two other you tubes from him on 12 fret

[blindboyjimi]

Originally Posted by Misifus

Typically, there are two approaches to the difference between 12 and 14 guitars. One, the one JonWint so clearly illustrates above, is to shape the bodies differently. When Martin introduced the 14 body, they shaped the body differently to allow 14 frets clear of the body, rather than the 12 which was traditional. Thus, the bridge remained in the same place it had always been. The other approach to create a 12 fret example based on a previous 14 fret is, as has been said, to move the bridge further down the lower bout. This is the approach Jamie Kinscherff took in creating my twelve fret.

Theoretically, the latter approach might have some affect on tone. However, when my Kinscherff 12 fret was built, at the same time, Jamie was building a 14 fret model identical to mine in every detail, except the number of frets free of the body for a friend of mine. A year after receiving both guitars, we sat down in a quiet room to compare the two. After more than an hour, neither of us could hear any difference in the two.

My point in the last paragraph is simply that theoretical differences don’t alway produce audible differences. Theoretically, adding a cutaway should affect the time, but I’ve never heard such a difference. Theory is great, but you can’t always hear what you expect.

One caveat is that luthiers can control sound and have an idea of what sounds best to them so it may be similar in the case above, but from my point of view it is rare that a 14 fret sounds the same as a 12 fret.

Here is a photo of 3 guitars. Ignoring the cutaway, the one one the left is a 000-12, which is made in the classic form, by extending the upper bout and enveloping the 14th and 13th fret. This creates a larger air volume. The middle guitar is a classic OM made to copy a 1933 OM-18. The guitar on the right is made by using an OM (000-14) body and putting on a 12 fret neck. This results in a shorter guitar making the reach easier as if playing a guitar capo’d at the 2nd fret. This guitar is short scale, 24.9” where as the other 2 are full scale at 25.4”. Since all three hang at the nut you see the variance in total length, but also where the bridge is located. Only the guitar on the right clearly has the bridge in the center of the lower bout. Finally, notice where the sound hole is located compared to the waist of the guitar. All of these contribute to the overall tone.

I hope that helps. There are indeed no silly questions.
IMG_1614363479.255431.jpg

Maybe it is easier with the OM on the left.
IMG_1614363944.814255.jpg

[zombywoof]

The difference between the bridge position on a 12 and 14 fret guitar is like the difference between hitting a snare drum in the center or more off to the side.

When Martin went to 14 fret guitars they altered the body shape by shortening the upper bout to meet the neck at the 14th fret. When Gibson went the same route they did not alter the body but changed the bridge position and bracing pattern.

1932 Gibson L1

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by Pattern

....I’m guessing 12 frets are shorter. Or standard-ish length with more space in between? I’m curious too

Scale length has nothing to do with either 12 frets or 14 frets at the neck/body join. You can have any of the combinations: 12 fret SS, 12 fret LS, 14 fret SS, 14 fret LS.
SS = 24.9" scale length, LS = 25.4" scale length (in the Martin world).

Originally Posted by NY Deadhead

I'm sure this is going to qualify me as a noob, but what is the difference bet. a 12fret and a 14 fret guitar? But I was always told there are no stupid question's.

There is one stupid question - would you mind if I paid you $5000 for $500 worth of work?

[jaymarsch]

I own both 12 and 14 fret long scale guitars as well as 12 and 14 fret short scale guitars. Each has their own particular voice in combination with other build variables.
Best,
Jayne

[boneuphtoner]

Much has been written about 12/14 frets, tonal differences, etc. I won't reproduce all that here, but when I was new and reading about this for the first time, I didn't fully grasp that there are two completely different approaches to achieving a 12 fret instrument - there might be others, but I'm not aware of them. And other manufacturers, generally fall into one of these two different approaches

The Taylor approach - also used by RainSong guitars - this approach keeps the same body in going from 14 to 12 frets - this approach uses a short scale, and the bridge is much further removed from the sound hole.

The Martin approach - used by many boutique builders like Bourgeois, etc. uses different body shapes in going from 14 to 12 frets - these use the standard scale, and elongate the bodies of the guitars to meet the 12th fret.

Here is my take on the two methods - they each have their own strengths/weaknesses. The Taylor method's strength is that you get a short scale guitar with a 12 fret for a slinkier feel with less tension. However, the downside for me is they keep the same body shape so they have to push the whole neck into the body of the guitar - while this might be the reason why these 12 frets sound different, this results in the whole neck being in a different position - maybe that is a good thing for some people, but for me it completely throws off the feel of my 14 fret guitars - your fretting hand has to be in a completely different position as the fret positions have changed. The Martin 12 fret design doesn't have this short coming as the body is elongated and the relationship between your picking/fretting positions remain essentially unchanged, but you don't get the short scale with this design.

[blindboyjimi]

Originally Posted by Pattern

I’m guessing 12 frets are shorter. Or standard-ish length with more space in between? I’m curious too

12 fret designs made with a 12 fret exposed neck on a "regular" 00/000/OM body are indeed shorter by the distance of 2 frets such as in the Martin in my post or the Gibson 12-fret L0/00 in zombywolf's post. In my post, you will see the Martin is visibly shorter as all three are hanging with the nuts in the same position.

Originally Posted by Earl49

Scale length has nothing to do with either 12 frets or 14 frets at the neck/body join. You can have any of the combinations: 12 fret SS, 12 fret LS, 14 fret SS, 14 fret LS.
SS = 24.9" scale length, LS = 25.4" scale length (in the Martin world).

I don't think, by "shorter" Pattern was implying scale, but your point speaks to the below quote as well!

Originally Posted by boneuphtoner

Much has been written about 12/14 frets, tonal differences, etc. I won't reproduce all that here, but when I was new and reading about this for the first time, I didn't fully grasp that there are two completely different approaches to achieving a 12 fret instrument - there might be others, but I'm not aware of them. And other manufacturers, generally fall into one of these two different approaches

The Taylor approach - also used by RainSong guitars - this approach keeps the same body in going from 14 to 12 frets - this approach uses a short scale, and the bridge is much further removed from the sound hole.

The Martin approach - used by many boutique builders like Bourgeois, etc. uses different body shapes in going from 14 to 12 frets - these use the standard scale, and elongate the bodies of the guitars to meet the 12th fret.

Here is my take on the two methods - they each have their own strengths/weaknesses. The Taylor method's strength is that you get a short scale guitar with a 12 fret for a slinkier feel with less tension. However, the downside for me is they keep the same body shape so they have to push the whole neck into the body of the guitar - while this might be the reason why these 12 frets sound different, this results in the whole neck being in a different position - maybe that is a good thing for some people, but for me it completely throws off the feel of my 14 fret guitars - your fretting hand has to be in a completely different position as the fret positions have changed. The Martin 12 fret design doesn't have this short coming as the body is elongated and the relationship between your picking/fretting positions remain essentially unchanged, but you don't get the short scale with this design.

Just a few clarification points since the OP is new to this 12/14 fret idea and the above poster is relatively new to hopefully be helpful and non-argumentative as we are all learning here.

Scale length is the distance from the inside of the nut to the point over the 12th fret (this way you can disregard "relative scale" since most saddles are slanted). It has nothing to do with whether a guitar is 12, 13, or 14 frets. There are many 12 fret long-scale guitars and 14 fret short-scale guitars the 2 are not connected.

Also, I find saying "Martin" approach, "Taylor" or "Gibson" for that matter as being not great as in post #10, I am clearly showing a "Martin" with 12 frets on a standard body as your "Taylor" approach method suggests.

Back in the late 1920s and early 1930s Gibson put 13 and 14 fret necks on their standard-sized bodies and Martin squared off the upper bout to give access to the 13th and 14th fret, in essence, they shortened the bodies of their 12 fret guitars (vs elongating the bodies of the 14 frets as the 12 fret guitars came first) but nowadays anything goes, and it's independent of scale length to try to sell guitars.