LR Baggs Voiceprint

[redwards]

I've seen a few videos out there but has anyone on here had firsthand experience with the new Voiceprint? Pros and cons and likes and dislikes? Early days I know, and nobody will have used in a gig situation yet but I am intrigued by it.

[PANDAPANDELO]

I'm looking forward to some feedback on that, too. Specially comparing it with the Tonedexter 2.0.

[schinckley]

I’m surprised that others haven’t responded here yet. Maybe their Voiceprints are under the tree right now and we’ll get some more responses after Christmas. I own a VPDI, but I’m still in the experimentation phase with it, so I was hesitating on posting about it, but some health issues are limiting my activities right now, so I may not get back to it for a couple of months. I have previously owned a Tonedexter, and it occurred to me that I’m probably one of the few right now that has experience with both, so I might as well do a write-up of my experience thus far. I want to be clear, though, that all my thoughts about Tonedexter are from memory of it’s use and sound, and I think I was on version 1.6 when I sold it, so I can’t comment about 2.0. And I can’t do an A/B sound comparison. But I’ll throw my thoughts into the discussion and you can evaluate their usefulness.

One note before I start: in my limited experience with acoustic guitar amplification, “YMMV” cannot be overstated. There are so many variables at play, that one person’s experience can be totally different than another’s.

Voiceprint Experience Thus Far
For reference, I’m using a Larrivee L-05 with and James May Ultra Tonic pickup. I’ve been able to make some Voiceprints that are generally good, and even very good in the high frequencies. I consistently struggle with the bass and low-mids however. They are quite boomy, despite placing my iPhone in various positions to mitigate this. (I have an adapter that will hold my iPhone on a mic boom so I can position it just like any mic and have experimented with various common placements.) The EQ section of the AcousticLive app works to tame this problem, but it requires more EQ than I had hoped. Still, it’s a usable sound, but I find I prefer the bass sound I get from an EQ’d version of the Ultra Tonic pickup.

Another issue I’ve had with some, but not all, the Voiceprints I’ve created is excessive string noise. Multiple times, the completed IR greatly amplified string noise. I actually experimented with using an exciter (speaker without the cone) placed on the soundboard just behind the bridge, a sine wave sweep, and the strings muted with a towel to see what the resulting VP would be. It eliminated the string noise issue, but I had even bigger problems in the lower frequencies, which might have been phone placement. At any rate, the VP creation seems to be sensitive to string noise, at least with my guitar/pickup/iPhone combination. Careful playing during the creation reduces the problem, though there’s still more than I’d personally like.

The app has some bugs. I’ve had several times where the app loses the connection to the pedal. Power cycling the pedal restores the connection. I’ve also had times where I tweaked an EQ, but did not hit save and hence lost my changes when I switched presets - the app ought to have a “Save” prompt before leaving the EQ section if there’s been a change. I’ve had times that when I switch between presets using the phone, a thump goes through the PA, but this doesn’t always happen. There were one or two other quirks I experienced that I can’t remember the specifics of, but the app is only 1.0, and I imagine that in a year’s time these will all be ironed out. Note that all these issues are with the app and not the pedal, and the app is relatively easy to fix with updates from Baggs.

Here’s what I see as the real pluses of the Baggs VPDI: relatively simple IR creation; lots of EQ; more presets than you’d ever need; ease of switching between presets; easily re-order presets; using same IR in multiple presets with different EQ; increased functionality with purchase of “Advanced toolkit” when it becomes available, including Baggs “Saturation” and “Comp EQ.” A minor plus is that its smaller than the TD.

As it stands now, it’s unlikely I will use the Voiceprint (or any other IR) as my sole guitar signal, but I’m still in the experimentation phase and hope that I can use it to add some more dimension to the dual-source system I’m already running, but this requires some advanced signal routing which I won’t get into here. In saying this, I can see how many people may really like both the sound the VPDI can produce and the features for live use.

Comparing VPDI to my memory of Tonedexter
For some people, comparing the sound of the IR’s will be the key comparison rather than specific features. Unfortunately, I can’t A/B the Baggs and the Tonedexter because I no longer own a Tonedexter. The reason I sold it is that I just couldn’t get a sound that I liked and pursued another amplification scheme (dual-source). I had two problems at that time: intolerable high frequencies, and a sense of the WaveMaps being “distant” and “hollow.” I was using a different pickup at the time (Schatten HFN), which helps explain the high frequency issues (I’m not the first to express this about the HFN in general and about this with the HFN+Tonedexter). I now wish I still had the Tonedexter because I’d like to try 2.0 with the Ultra Tonic, having more experience in general with amplification, more skill with EQ, a better idea of what I’m looking for, more realistic expectations, etc. At any rate, I have not noticed any similar distant or hollow nature to any Voiceprints that I’ve created with the Baggs. In saying this, there are many very happy TD users who say they don’t experience this or have experienced it but are able to change their IR creation setup scheme to eliminate it. YMMV.

For some people, one major drawback of the Baggs will be the phone component, and it’s worth considering the implications. As long as you want to use the Baggs in your setup, you’ll have to have an iPhone (or compatible iOS device, and perhaps Android when they release an app). While you don’t need the iPhone for playback—live convolution and DSP is done on the pedal—creating Voiceprints and presets, EQ changes, etc., all require the phone. So, look down the road 20 years: your TD will work just like it does today. It’s reasonable to question whether the Baggs will or not, however, in that they are giving up some control of their product’s usability to another company/companies who’s development choices and product roadmap they have no control over. One solution could be to dedicate an iOS device to your VPDI now, but obviously this significantly increases the cost. (Buying mics/cables for TD is also not free, however.) In the meantime, app/OS updates sometimes introduce new bugs, and if you are a professional touring musician and relying on your IR setup to work every night, it makes sense to turn off auto updates and only update when known bugs are resolved. I don’t think this is a huge deal, but in some use cases, it’s worth considering. (For example, if I were a guitar tech working for a well-known guitarist who sold out stadiums and used the VPDI, then you can bet there would be an iOS device that did nothing but connect to the VPDI.) It’s also worth considering that in 20 years, you might want to buy the latest and greatest new pedal anyway (perhaps in 10 years or 2 years, depending on your preferences), so this concern may be moot. Suffice it to say, the way the VPDI uses the iPhone (and in the future, Android) has benefits (increased functionality, feature expansion, ease of use) but also comes with it’s own set of concerns.

Product support is probably useful to consider with a purchase like this. In my experience and observation, each manufacturer provides excellent support. I’ve personally experienced James May’s responsiveness when I had questions about his Ultra Tonic pickup, and have seen him quickly answer user’s questions on AGF and provide information about his products that is very useful for purchase decision making as well as using his products. Similarly, LR Baggs runs a Voiceprint forum on their website, and their representative, Caleb, is very responsive to user’s questions about the product and has quickly provided fixes for users when they have issues. I get the sense that Baggs understands that their product is 1.0 and that they are committed to helping customers understand their product, resolve issues, and tweak the product according to user’s feedback. Lloyd Baggs has also said the VPDI is only the beginning of their digital audio processing product roadmap (or something along those lines), so I think one can be confident in their commitment.

(To be continued...)

[schinckley]

(Continued from previous post)

Summary
If you already have mics, cables, a mic stand, knowledge of mic’ing techniques and the various sounds produced with those techniques, than Tonedexter is a great option. Post IR processing is limited (treble and bass knobs only), preset switching is more cumbersome (knob and finger switch), but it does have a boost footswitch and a tuner (which is usable, not great). If you’re really a tweaker, there is a way to use a DAW to train the TD WaveMaps and you can really fine tune the sound you’re after, but this is advanced signal processing and requires a whole other level of skill, expertise and time to make it work, but near as I can tell can only be done with TD, not Baggs. If you’re at this level of tweakdom, and are interested in IR’s, you probably already own TD.

If you have an iPhone, and think you’re unlikely to experiment with mics (or don’t have mic experience), then the Baggs is a great option. It has lots of post-processing options, with more promised in the future. Preset handling is more robust (footswitching, more presets available, easily re-ordered, re-use IR with different settings). However, it lacks a boost switch and tuner, and if you find you want to experiment with mics it requires a dongle for the iPhone (easily obtained and relatively cheap) and a USB interface. There are some growing pains as the product is brand new, but I believe those will be ironed out relatively quickly.

In the end, I don’t think that either pedal is clearly better than the other. I think they’re similar enough that many players interested in using IR for amplification would be happy with either one, but different enough that some players would prefer one to the other.

Personally, I wish I still had the Tonedexter so that I could compare the sound, but I definitely fit into the tweaker (and hard to please) category, and I’m not totally sold on using only an IR as my amplified sound. I do sometimes envy those who are happy with their unprocessed or lightly processed UST. Why isn’t my life that simple?

[redwards]

Wow Schinckley, that was a response worth waiting for. Thank you so much for taking the time with that clear and comprehensive explanation. I hope your health issues resolve and all the best for the festive period in these strange and unsettling times.

[schinckley]

Originally Posted by redwards

Wow Schinckley, that was a response worth waiting for. Thank you so much for taking the time with that clear and comprehensive explanation. I hope your health issues resolve and all the best for the festive period in these strange and unsettling times.

Thanks, I’m glad you appreciate it. I wanted to try to offer something useful. I hope to hear from others about their experience with Baggs, and Baggs vs. Tonedexter. I’d be interested to see how people are getting the sounds they like. And I’m sure there are many factors/questions about Baggs/Tonedexter that other players have that I haven’t considered.

I also realized I neglected to state the iPhone I am using. It’s an iPhone 7+. It’s not my daily-use phone, but one my mother-in-law gave to us when my wife’s phone was having problems. My wife ended up upgrading to a newer phone, so this one was just sitting in a drawer. (I tend to collect electronic gadgets.) So I do have the luxury of having an iOS device dedicated to the Baggs right now.

Incidentally, I did try making some Voiceprints with my daily phone, an iPhone 8, but didn’t notice any significant differences. It’s worth noting that different iPhones have different mics with different frequency response curves but not drastically different, and the differences are mostly at the edges (very low, very high). From looking at some frequency response curves of various iPhones that someone posted on the Baggs online forum, they are similar enough that placement would probably make a bigger difference than the actual iPhone you’re using, but that’s just a guess which would have to be tested in order to be confidently stated. Baggs has acknowledged that the different iPhone mics will give different sounds, but I personally doubt that it would be different enough to warrant tracking down, much less purchasing, multiple different iPhones. If your wanting to experiment in that way, it would make more sense to me to just use actual mics. In saying that, if you’re having consistent problems with a particular frequency range (particularly at the edges of the curves), it might be worth tracking down a frequency response curve of your phone’s mic to see if it might be playing a part. Just thoughts from a tweaker...

[rdamato]

Can one connect an "Outboard" mic to their IPhone and expect a higher quality capture??

[schinckley]

Originally Posted by rdamato

Can one connect an "Outboard" mic to their IPhone and expect a higher quality capture??

It is possible to connect an outboard mic to the iPhone and use it for Voiceprint capture. How to do so is outlined on the LR Baggs website forum.

Whether it’s higher-quality is subjective, however. Baggs (and other IR creators) say the IR will carry the signature of the mic that was used in it’s creation. There’s a thread about the theory of using the iPhone mic for IR creation here. James May recommends flat response mics over mics that color the sound, and the iPhone mic frequency response curves are pretty flat. (Apple doesn’t publish these to my knowledge, but on the Baggs site somebody posted some measurements they had done of various iPhone mics.). James even said the iPhone mic would likely provide pleasing results with the Tonedexter (which probably would require advanced input methods using a DAW). As I’ve explored this topic, I’ve concluded that the iPhone mic is not appreciably inferior to using other “standard” mics for IR creation, as some have suggested, and perhaps has some advantages (relatively flat response) to some commonly used mics to record/amplify acoustic guitars.

So, yes, outboard mics can be used to create the Voiceprints with the AcousticLive app, and the resultant Voiceprint will sound different than the iPhone mic, bet whether you like it or not will be subjective. If you really love the features of the Baggs VPDI, and you have some experience with mic’ing guitars, than it might be worth it to you to experiment. If you do so, please post your findings!

[tadol]

I’ve just spent some time playing with my UltraTonic and Tonedexter with 2.01 installed. It’s an incredible combination, and I can get really great sound with minimal playing around -

I don’t have a VP, so I can’t specifically speak to the differences, but my takeaway is that the app allows for lots of tweaking and adjusting of the EQ, which doesn’t really interest me. I like simple, clean, and accurate - the UltraTonic gives me a great signal, with easy volume adjustment and no batteries, and the Tonedexter lets me get an extremely good tone from my guitar with minimal adjustments required, and enough flexibility in the tone controls provided to deal with most anything. I now seem to have more and more devices relying on my phone for status and adjustment, and it’s becoming too much - IMHO, my 2c, etc, etc -

[jennconducts]

I do have both, and I have some preliminary observations. Disclaimer: I was a very early adopter of the ToneDexter, and I have spent the years since it first came out singing its praises far and wide, telling colleagues/friends about it at every opportunity. I've been a "true believer" from the start. I think so highly of it that I bought two, so I would have a spare in case one went south and I had an important gig coming up.

Also, these observations of the Voiceprint are based only on using a PA speaker lifted to about a foot off the floor. I haven't yet heard it though a house system in a great acoustic space. I have access to one of those, but I just haven't gotten around to doing that yet.

The VP is DEAD EASY to set up and make a voiceprint. No mic, no stand, etc. Just your iPhone. The app is cool. Lots of EQ flexibility. I don't think that I would use that too often, as I like a plug in and go scenario. But for a difficult room or house system, yes, I can see where it would be very helpful.

The sound vs. ToneDexter: Given the previously mentioned set up, I would say that the VP is quite similar to the TD sound PRIOR to TD firmware 2.0. The new firmware tilts my preference to the ToneDexter. Yes, I know that there's lots of variability with TD based on mic used, mic positions, etc. I'm making these casual preliminary observations based on the best voiceprint on the VP and the best WaveMap on TD that I can get on the respective devices. And by "best", I mean a louder version of the guitar that I am playing, as opposed to some idealized sound of some guitar.

The guitars used were 3 Baranik instruments with varying wood combinations and of different body styles. All are equipped with David Enke's marvelous Open to Source Sensors passive UST.

More impressions to come when I get both plugged into a fine house system in a great sounding theatre, sometime in January.

Jenn

[redwards]

Cheers Jenn. Thanks for sharing your experience.

[BillCoplin]

I received my VoicePrint about 3 weeks ago and have testing it on my 4 Carbon Fiber Guitars and my Yairi DY85 (Martin D42 copy). While I was skeptical of using my iPhone as the microphone to create the voiceprints, I’m very satisfied with the results. The best part is all of the other features of LR Baggs iPhone app (ie. EQ, Boosts, Feedback eliminator, Blend). As someone in a recent demo explained, you not only hear the difference between your pickup and the VoicePrint but you also “feel” it. The amplified sounds feels like your acoustic guitar with a great microphone. I have a Rode NT1 and a Shure SM81 that I have used to record my guitars. However my basement is rather noisy so the VoicePrint allows me to records the guitars without the noisy environment. I’m still learning and testing the products but I’m very impressed so far. I had my eyes on a Tonedexter pedal but since I already had an LR Baggs Venue preamp, I thought I’d try it first.

My guitars are as follows:

Yairi DY85 with a K&K Pure Mini passive pickup
Composite Acoustics Cargo with a passive Schatten HFN pickup
Composite Acoustics GX with LR Baggs an active I-Beam pickup
Emerald X-20 with a passive Schatten HFN pickup
Emerald X-30 with an LR Baggs Element pickup

[leew3]

thanks to all of the VP users above for some great and dispassionate real life evaluations.

[Campro]

Originally Posted by jennconducts

I do have both, and I have some preliminary observations. Disclaimer: I was a very early adopter of the ToneDexter, and I have spent the years since it first came out singing its praises far and wide, telling colleagues/friends about it at every opportunity. I've been a "true believer" from the start. I think so highly of it that I bought two, so I would have a spare in case one went south and I had an important gig coming up.

Also, these observations of the Voiceprint are based only on using a PA speaker lifted to about a foot off the floor. I haven't yet heard it though a house system in a great acoustic space. I have access to one of those, but I just haven't gotten around to doing that yet.

The VP is DEAD EASY to set up and make a voiceprint. No mic, no stand, etc. Just your iPhone. The app is cool. Lots of EQ flexibility. I don't think that I would use that too often, as I like a plug in and go scenario. But for a difficult room or house system, yes, I can see where it would be very helpful.

The sound vs. ToneDexter: Given the previously mentioned set up, I would say that the VP is quite similar to the TD sound PRIOR to TD firmware 2.0. The new firmware tilts my preference to the ToneDexter. Yes, I know that there's lots of variability with TD based on mic used, mic positions, etc. I'm making these casual preliminary observations based on the best voiceprint on the VP and the best WaveMap on TD that I can get on the respective devices. And by "best", I mean a louder version of the guitar that I am playing, as opposed to some idealized sound of some guitar.

The guitars used were 3 Baranik instruments with varying wood combinations and of different body styles. All are equipped with David Enke's marvelous Open to Source Sensors passive UST.

More impressions to come when I get both plugged into a fine house system in a great sounding theatre, sometime in January.

Jenn

Hi, Jenn. Just wondering if you have any kind of comparison update yet. I've got a K&K installed in my Martin CEO-9 and am very interested in both the Tonedexter and the Baggs Voiceprint. My concern is that I may still need more EQ to dial the tone of my guitar post-wavemap/voiceprint. On several demos I've listened to/watched both systems can sometimes make the guitar sound hollow, kind of like a mic has been placed inside the guitar's soundhole. I like the ease of recording and powerful eq of the Baggs, and I like the boost feature and microphone flexibility of the Tonedexter. In short, which of the two comes closer to the Holy Grail of "my guitar only louder"?
Anyway, any updates would be helpful. Thanks.

[Campro]

Originally Posted by BillCoplin

I received my VoicePrint about 3 weeks ago and have testing it on my 4 Carbon Fiber Guitars and my Yairi DY85 (Martin D42 copy). While I was skeptical of using my iPhone as the microphone to create the voiceprints, I’m very satisfied with the results. The best part is all of the other features of LR Baggs iPhone app (ie. EQ, Boosts, Feedback eliminator, Blend). As someone in a recent demo explained, you not only hear the difference between your pickup and the VoicePrint but you also “feel” it. The amplified sounds feels like your acoustic guitar with a great microphone. I have a Rode NT1 and a Shure SM81 that I have used to record my guitars. However my basement is rather noisy so the VoicePrint allows me to records the guitars without the noisy environment. I’m still learning and testing the products but I’m very impressed so far. I had my eyes on a Tonedexter pedal but since I already had an LR Baggs Venue preamp, I thought I’d try it first.

My guitars are as follows:

Yairi DY85 with a K&K Pure Mini passive pickup
Composite Acoustics Cargo with a passive Schatten HFN pickup
Composite Acoustics GX with LR Baggs an active I-Beam pickup
Emerald X-20 with a passive Schatten HFN pickup
Emerald X-30 with an LR Baggs Element pickup

Hi, Bill. Thanks for sharing your comments. I'm looking at both the Tonedexter and the Baggs Voiceprint and I'm leaning towards the Baggs due to its smaller size and its EQ capabilities. I have an Emerald X20 with a Baggs Anthem and a Martin with a K&K pure mini. I would like to know how the K&K behaves with the VP. How does the K&K in your Yairi get along with the Voiceprint? Do you need to run anything before the VP to act as a buffer due to the impedance mismatch between the K&K's 1 Meg Ohm and the VP's 2.2 Meg Ohm input or isn't it a problem? I would prefer to be able to plug straight into the VP and have less stuff to haul around and take up less space.
Last but not least, is it possible to use the EQ function on the VP without an associated voiceprint activated? Thanks ahead of time for your answer.