Anyone here own a 25"-25.75" or 25.4"-26.25" scale fan fret?

[Dustinfurlow]

Just curious how you like it for playing in standard and if you potentially run into issues tuning the 25" down to D for DADGAD stuff or not?

I've never spent enough time with a short scale to know how they behave when tuned down to DADGAD or even C tunings...whether or not the sting might lose sustain or get floppy.

Any input or experience would be appreciated!

Commissioning a guitar to be my "Swiss army knife" for playing in standard and dropped tunings (my 25.75" scale SJ if a little tiring to play when tuned up to standard, even with lights) and I have the choice between a 25"-25.75" or 25.4"-26.25". I feel like the 26.25 would be a little bit of work on the lower strings when tuned to standard, even with light gauge strings.

Thanks folks.

[s2y]

I'm blanking on the exact fan of my KR 6 string. Something like 26-25" or so. I had high hopes for DADGAD, but the shorter high strings probably work against that goal. I am using the Elixir HD strings. The low D sounds great. The high A and high D sound a little flubby in comparison. On a different guitar, I built some custom Mangan strings that were basically 12s with a .056 low D, .018 high A, and .014 high D.

[Quake17]

I have a Lowden F with the fan frets; I've only had it a few months and have not dabbled in DADGAD yet. I really enjoy the extra bass "Oomph" in standard tuning though. I'd think it would do fine in a lower tuning as the scale length goes from 26.77" to 25". Interestingly, the new Lowden strings for DADGAD are medium gauge except the 4th and 5th strings are extra lights?

http://www.lowdenguitars.com/strings

[Dustinfurlow]

Originally Posted by s2y

I'm blanking on the exact fan of my KR 6 string. Something like 26-25" or so. I had high hopes for DADGAD, but the shorter high strings probably work against that goal. I am using the Elixir HD strings. The low D sounds great. The high A and high D sound a little flubby in comparison. On a different guitar, I built some custom Mangan strings that were basically 12s with a .056 low D, .018 high A, and .014 high D.

Wonder if I will need to use a 0.14 if I were to do the 25"-25.75" then, to bring back some tension.

[Dustinfurlow]

Originally Posted by Quake17

I have a Lowden F with the fan frets; I've only had it a few months and have not dabbled in DADGAD yet. I really enjoy the extra bass "Oomph" in standard tuning though. I'd think it would do fine in a lower tuning as the scale length goes from 26.77" to 25". Interestingly, the new Lowden strings for DADGAD are medium gauge except the 4th and 5th strings are extra lights?

http://www.lowdenguitars.com/strings

That's quite the spread! So you're saying you don't get too much fatigue playing in standard on that particular fan fret?

[Quake17]

Dustin,

I do not feel too fatigued on the fan fret, but I've not played it more than an hour at a time. I have a Tacoma Baritone and that fatigues me

[bwjp]

My Halcyon is 24.75 - 25.5 and great in standard tuning and lower tunings using Elixir lights (12's), although I rarely go below D.

Best of luck

[s2y]

Originally Posted by Dustinfurlow

Wonder if I will need to use a 0.14 if I were to do the 25"-25.75" then, to bring back some tension.

I like a .014 if leaving the guitar in DADGAD. The Elixir HD strings are ok if tuning between DADGAD and standard. Difference between good and ok is probably up to you.

[Jeff Scott]

To try and answer a couple of points:

I have a 25.5"-27" scale 12 string guitar (Yamamoto MS-12) that I leave in DADGAD most of the time. IIRC it has D'Addario lights on it, but I'd have to check to make sure (not tonight).

I also have a 24;9" scale length non-MS guitar (Yamamoto Talus VS-12) that also is usually played in DADGAD; ATM, it has light gauge Elixirs on it. To me, they play and sound just fine, (actually way nicer than fine).

I have, on occasion, tuned both guitars to CGDGBE and they still play fine, to me; no floppiness IMO.

[justonwo]

I owned a 25.5-26.25" spread Mustapick for some time. For the most part, the fan fret was unnoticeable. I don't recall that guitar being particularly tiring on the long scale side.

That being said, I'm generally not a huge fan (get it) of fan frets. I think in practice the benefits are exaggerated. I've played so many guitars that have fantastic bass response in drop tunings with a standard scale length, that I just don't think fan frets are necessary. Any of my three Brondel A-2/A-1 guitars has better bass response in drop tuning than just about any fan fret guitar I've ever played - and I've played quite a few of them.

If I played a guitar that blew me away, and that guitar had a fan fret, I would have no problem buying it . . . but I really don't think it's necessary to achieve great bass response in drop tunings. Some builders who use them will disagree with me, so don't take my word as gospel. That's just my experience.

I would get a 25.5" standard scale from a builder who can produce a guitar with great alternate tuning response. Who, by the way, is the builder?

[Dustinfurlow]

Originally Posted by justonwo

I owned a 25.5-26.25" spread Mustapick for some time. For the most part, the fan fret was unnoticeable. I don't recall that guitar being particularly tiring on the long scale side.

That being said, I'm generally not a huge fan (get it) of fan frets. I think in practice the benefits are exaggerated. I've played so many guitars that have fantastic bass response in drop tunings with a standard scale length, that I just don't think fan frets are necessary. Any of my three Brondel A-2/A-1 guitars has better bass response in drop tuning than just about any fan fret guitar I've ever played - and I've played quite a few of them.

If I played a guitar that blew me away, and that guitar had a fan fret, I would have no problem buying it . . . but I really don't think it's necessary to achieve great bass response in drop tunings. Some builders who use them will disagree with me, so don't take my word as gospel. That's just my experience.

I would get a 25.5" standard scale from a builder who can produce a guitar with great alternate tuning response. Who, by the way, is the builder?

Marc Beneteau, he has made many fan frets and honestly has great bass response for dropped tunings on his standard 25.4 guitars, but I like the idea of potentially not having to deal with the buzz or slight floppiness on the bottom strings when tuning down to C or B. I’m mostly wondering if a 25” scale top is a bad idea if I go to DADGAD and lower frequently.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Dustinfurlow

Just curious how you like it for playing in standard and if you potentially run into issues tuning the 25" down to D for DADGAD stuff or not?

I've never spent enough time with a short scale to know how they behave when tuned down to DADGAD or even C tunings...whether or not the sting might lose sustain or get floppy.

Any input or experience would be appreciated!

Commissioning a guitar to be my "Swiss army knife" for playing in standard and dropped tunings (my 25.75" scale SJ if a little tiring to play when tuned up to standard, even with lights) and I have the choice between a 25"-25.75" or 25.4"-26.25". I feel like the 26.25 would be a little bit of work on the lower strings when tuned to standard, even with light gauge strings.

Thanks folks.

Hi df

My Bashkin is 25"-25.75" scale and I have no issues tuning from standard all the way down to CGCGCD with standard light gauge strings (.012-.053). I've been playing it now for 14 years with lights on it.

I usually bump the 1st string (the .012) up one weight, not for tension but to match the tone of the second string when I'm soloing.

Anyway, I've played many different fanned fret guitars of different scales, and the 25"-25.75" scale is a great fit for an OM sized guitar as it gives a natural boost to the low end, and keeps the trebles sweet when I'm playing 12th fret and above (I often play upwards from 15th fret on trebles strings). It also allows for full step bends much easier, and it's easier to impart finger vibrato/tremolo as well.

I don't think you need to worry about floppiness in DADGAD, and you could do what I do and beef up the top string or two by one weight and it's equalize it.

[Dustinfurlow]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi df

My Bashkin is 25"-25.75" scale and I have no issues tuning from standard all the way down to CGCGCD with standard light gauge strings (.012-.053). I've been playing it now for 14 years with lights on it.

I usually bump the 1st string (the .012) up one weight, not for tension but to match the tone of the second string when I'm soloing.

Anyway, I've played many different fanned fret guitars of different scales, and the 25"-25.75" scale is a great fit for an OM sized guitar as it gives a natural boost to the low end, and keeps the trebles sweet when I'm playing 12th fret and above (I often play upwards from 15th fret on trebles strings). It also allows for full step bends much easier, and it's easier to impart finger vibrato/tremolo as well.

I don't think you need to worry about floppiness in DADGAD, and you could do what I do and beef up the top string or two by one weight and it's equalize it.

Thank you very much for the detailed response...that puts my mind at ease!

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by Dustinfurlow

Marc Beneteau, he has made many fan frets and honestly has great bass response for dropped tunings on his standard 25.4 guitars, but I like the idea of potentially not having to deal with the buzz or slight floppiness on the bottom strings when tuning down to C or B. I’m mostly wondering if a 25” scale top is a bad idea if I go to DADGAD and lower frequently.

I tend to prefer longer scale lengths on the trebles, though that isn't a hard and fast rule. If it were going to be my guitar, I'd opt for the longer combo. If you really want to get the most out of dropped tunings, I think longer tends to be better. My best performing drop tuning guitars have longer scale lengths.

[theEdwinson]

Hi, Dustin,
Joel Teel just turned me on to this thread, and it's of particular interest to me, because I have a lot of experience with the 25"- 25.75" multiscale configuration, having made several of them. This is my go-to, all-purpose scale spread, since it is so versatile.

I have always played open tunings almost exclusively, all D- and C-based. When I was really playing a lot, using a single-scale guitar was always a compromise, because there wasn't enough tension on the bass end to hold up to vigorous playing without rattling like crazy. I was often mixing string gauges, putting medium or heavy strings on the bottom. But I don't much like the feel of big fat strings.

I think it was in 2009 when I built my first 25"-25.75" multiscale guitar, and it was a revelation! I could tune down to CGCGCD, with a medium/low action setup, light gauge strings, and it felt great- supple and easy, but with enough tension to keep everything clean and accurate.
Multiscale architecture on a guitar just makes so much sense, I have a hard time understanding why it hasn't become the new standard, at least among modern players who play in more than one tuning, and need the kind of versatility and comfort that you get with a well-made multiscale guitar.

In recent years, my hands have developed some pain issues, and my reach is diminished. Playing in first position on longer scale lengths can be challenging; but I still prefer this string spread, because the tensions are optimum. I tend to capo up and just play in a higher key a lot of the time now.

I loaned that particular guitar to a friend for a couple months (he eventually bought the guitar) and he was mostly a Standard A440 guy. He really liked the way the longer scale on the bass end added to the bass response in standard tuning, without feeling stiff. The trebles sounded sweet and crystalline too. He could make that thing sing like a hummingbird kiss, or bark and snarl like a junkyard dog!

Earlier, you mentioned using a straight 25" scale to play DADGAD. I have built several shorter-scale OMs, 000s, and 00s with 25" or 24.75" scale lengths, and they held up fine in DADGAD and open G and D. I would use medium .013-.056 string on the 24.75 scale, but with a light touch on a highly responsive guitar that is optimized for fingerstyle, even regular .012-.053 strings work well tuned down to D.

A couple other things I've found about a 25"- 25.75" scale spread:
It's very ergonomic, with the perpendicular fret at #9 or #10. It follows the natural arc of your hand up and down the neck, so you really don't have to adapt to it. You might not even notice it's a multiscale at first. A one half inch or three-quarter inch string spread is very easy and natural. And I've found that I can use a regular set of light gauge .012-.053 strings for everything!

If you were to dedicate the guitar to D- and C-based tunings, putting medium bottoms on would be even better. Lots of string manufacturers are making these hybrid sets now, since DADGAD and other open tunings are so popular.

Also, I find that the trebles tend to sound more colorful and overtone-y at the shorter end of the scale; while the bass end has some extra punch and volume on the longer side.

And I've also found that multiscale guitars in general are easier to intonate accurately. I'm not sure why; I follow the same protocols as with a single scale guitar. But it's been consistently true.

In my opinion, the ideal Modern Fingerstyle guitar, for both Standard A440 and D- and C-based open tunings would have the following specs:

25"- 25.75" scale spread, with the # 10 fret perpendicular, to balance the fan spread between the nut and saddle;
Thirteen frets to the body, with a modern Florentine cutaway for full upper fretboard access;
A 1 13/16" nut width, and high and low E strings set in 1/8" from fretboard edge to accommodate bends, hammer-ons, and tapping;

Semi-hemispherical fret ends, NOT the usual 45 degree bevel. This extends the usable fret width slightly, and has good hand feel.

A 2 1/4" or 2 5/16" string spread at the saddle. I've even made a few with a 2 3/8" spread.

I have a system and a set of jigs that allows me and Joel to make pretty much any scale spread, in any configuration, in 1/4" scale increments, with perfect accuracy. We don't need to use set scale jigs, or CNC to do it. So in our shop, a multiscale guitar build is a true custom multiscale.

Personally, I would stay away from any scale spread of more than 7/8", unless the player has highly specialized needs. Wider spreads than that are pushing the boundaries of ergonomics.
That said, the first Multiscale I built, as a challenge from Bob E. up in Calgary, Alberta, was a seven-string semi-baritone, with a scale spread of 25.75" to 27.25" on the seventh, (low B) string. The low B string was a full .072 gauge- looked like a bridge cable! But I have to say, that guitar sounded like a seven string grand piano, and Bob could play it for hours at a time. Drove his wife crazy! In a good way.

Anyway, that's my $0.02 on the matter. Except to say that Joel and I really enjoy having your YouTube channel up on the iPad in the shop, so we can listen to your masterful guitar playing while we build guitars. You provide the perfect sound track for what we do. Thanks for the inspiration!

By the way, everyone reading this, check out Dustin's YouTube channel HERE. He's a sensationally talented player. LIKE and SUBSCRIBE!