What are your thoughts about tipping?

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Davis Webb

He is raising a good point. Its not about tipping for him. As I understand, the key is that restaraunt owners under pay staff and expect us to pick up the slack. The issue is not tipping for me, its how cheap many operators are. They charge $12 for a cocktail at our local bar, that has to pay the owner well. Face it, many restaraunt owners are cheap and miserly and underpay everyone.

How do you know what the owner's rent and overhead are? A HUGE majority of new restaurants that open up close within a year. It's a brutal business.

If you don't want to pay $12 for a cocktail, it may be time to frequent another restaurant. If everyone else in town is charging $12 for a cocktail and getting it, an owner would be a complete fool not to charge around the same, or he's losing money. And if $12 is too high, people will eventually drink elsewhere.

[Silurian]

Paying people a living wage. What kind of crazy talk is that?

Why is tipping generally reserved for the hospitality sector? If I buy a pair of shoes the sales assistant will bring various pairs to try on and will provide a level of service similar to a waiter but I don't tip them. The same can be said of other retailers.

I expect waiting staff to be polite and efficient in taking my order and bringing food. I don't expect them to have to behave like a performing seal expecting a fish.

Ultimately this is consumer driven. If you only want to pay $4.99 for a steak dinner with all the sides then something probably has to give. Either the quality of food or staff remuneration, or more likely both.

[1neeto]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

How do you know what the owner's rent and overhead are? A HUGE majority of new restaurants that open up close within a year. It's a brutal business.



If you don't want to pay $12 for a cocktail, it may be time to frequent another restaurant. If everyone else in town is charging $12 for a cocktail and getting it, an owner would be a complete fool not to charge around the same, or he's losing money. And if $12 is too high, people will eventually drink elsewhere.

There’s many other business models that are more likely to fail than to succeed, yet they don’t pass the payroll burden to the customer as blatant as restaurants/service industry does. Imagine if you went to your local mom and pop convenience store, and they had a sign next to the register suggesting tips because they can’t afford to pay their employees minimum wage. That would be outrageous right?

[harpspitfire]

my wife is a tipper, im not- ill leave $1 - $2 no matter where i eat or what it cost, why do restaurant owners get away with not having to pay at least minimum wage?restaurant owner wealth is ridiculous these days- if some go under, so what?- it seems theres as many places to eat as gas stations- oh yea, how many tip sears or Kmart??- gawd, i struggled for years with a handyman service and always had to pay out my butt for help

[Silly Moustache]

I'm so glad that we no longer have this issue here in the UK.
I would find it cringeingly embarrassing,even patronising to tip someone, in fact I feel it is rather classist.

Of course, the whole employee/employer relationship is different in the US to most other countries.

As far as I know, even in the catering industry has to be employed which means that they are guaranteed an agreed wage, even if only "minimum living wage" which I understand is most common in the American chain shops we have.

The employer has to deduct their income tax and National Insurance, and has to provide them with a pension plan which they may contribute to, and of course a minimum 5.6 (huh?) weeks paid holiday annually.

Whilst I don't agree with the minimum wage rules, which resulted zero hours contracts, tipping has now, thankfully gone out of practice.

I do remember taking my mother-in-law out to lunch and she would "hide" some coins under a plate as she left. She was, of course, from an older generation.

[Fogducker]

I belong to a fraternal organization that has a bar that is ENTIRELY supported by tips for volunteer barkeepers. With no payroll and the paperwork that goes along with that, everybody does quite well! Another fraternal group in town goes with traditional payroll (With its withholding, workman's comp, scheduling etc. etc.) and is hurting making its mortgage payment!

In fact, every once in awhile it comes up in the State legislature to eliminate tipping and pay higher salaries------all hell breaks loose from the servers who insist on the tipping system!

Fog

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by 1neeto

There’s many other business models that are more likely to fail than to succeed, yet they don’t pass the payroll burden to the customer as blatant as restaurants/service industry does. Imagine if you went to your local mom and pop convenience store, and they had a sign next to the register suggesting tips because they can’t afford to pay their employees minimum wage. That would be outrageous right?

Like I said, I guarantee a majority of those working off tips would gladly keep things that way. Restaurants don't open as a charity to the locality; whatever they pay their employees will get absorbed in the final cost of your food. Meaning your food costs go up - regardless of how good or bad your service is. People stop going there, and you end up with a closed restaurant and unemployed workers. Or they decide that a kiosk is far cheaper, they only pay it one time. The net result is less jobs not more. You see this already in many restaurants, toll booths, supermarkets. It's very easy (and common) today to villainize the store owners, when in reality they're not all making a boatload of money. Most do it merely for the passion and independence of making their own way. Coincidentally, many who work for tips do ao for the independence it affords them.

Also keep in mind, not evwryone that works in a restaurant does so on tips. There are chefs and kitchen workers as well. I can see non-tip restaurants work more with chains, since they can buy their product in larger bulk and save. I don'tthink that I will sway anyone that has the view that restaurantiers are passing the buck on to the consumer, when in fact they are giving us the freedom to decide how we compensate the product and service we receive.

[Golffishny]

Several members of our family have waited tables. We tip well for good service and 10% for poor service. That's the wait staff, not the kitchen. The law taxes the wait staff 8-10% (not sure of the exact amount) of the check for income tax, that's even if no tip is given. On a credit card payment the income tax can be higher if you list a higher tip amount on the check. We write cash on the tip line and tip accordingly. The staff doesn't have to wait for a card to clear and if the service is good they are awarded a better income.
Service employees work much harder than many realize, or would be willing to do themselves. The worst part is putting up with rude customers who think they can are entitled to every little wish they command. They're there to serve your food. If you want everything special, make it at home. Many servers go way beyond reasonable, show your appreciation.

[nitram]

Tipping and minimum wages are directly related.I find it questionable that many business owmers are extremely anti-raising the minimum wage claiming it would lead to imminent bankruptcy yet they manage to take a couple of winter vacations and leave their employees to look after the operation during their absences. The employees cannot afford a winter vacation but that's not the bosses' problem. When the minimum wage is generally considered to be at or below the poverty level how do the poor get to be the problem? When establishing a business should the owner expect that employees accept a pay scale based on subsidising the owner? If you can't run a business on the expectation of making a decent profit AND paying employees a reasonable wage-then maybe you shouldn't be looking at starting up the shop at all.

[Davis Webb]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

How do you know what the owner's rent and overhead are? A HUGE majority of new restaurants that open up close within a year. It's a brutal business.

If you don't want to pay $12 for a cocktail, it may be time to frequent another restaurant. If everyone else in town is charging $12 for a cocktail and getting it, an owner would be a complete fool not to charge around the same, or he's losing money. And if $12 is too high, people will eventually drink elsewhere.

We have been going through a minimum wage hike here lately from $11 an hour to $14. Economists from business schools here and the chief economist from Bank of Montreal explain that this is good for the economy, it increases purchase power for employees and has a neutral to positive effect on businesses.

You need to remember that $11 an hour, even less in the US, is $70 take home a day. That is $350 a week, which is $1400 a month. Rent here in Toronto is $1500 a month on average. Which means that a full time worker cannot make rent alone. Which means that workers frequently do 2 jobs, to double that.

$1500 a month is considered poverty wage here.

So we need to tip just to be fair to servers. I never tip less than 15%. But along with tax, that adds 30% to the meal cost. The more you eat, the higher the taxes and higher the tip. Which makes eating out prohibitive for most people.

What would work better, is paying servers $15 an hour flat and leaving tips to the discretion of the customer. I would say if you cannot afford to pay people a living wage, you have a lousy business model.

[Basalt Beach]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

Like I said, I guarantee a majority of those working off tips would gladly keep things that way.

When tips are pooled in a restaurant, the servers, tables staff and kitchen all share and no one individual is rewarded. Service levels are excellent and guests and employees are content.

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

......whatever they pay their employees will get absorbed in the final cost of your food. Meaning your food costs go up - regardless of how good or bad your service is.

If you tip 15% or 18% or whatever the amount, it is part of the final cost of eating out. If restaurants baked in 15% for the staff in to the meal & drink price and said tipping was not necessary, it is a zero sum change for the diners who previously tip at 15%.

You assume service levels decline when tipping is included in the food cost and in a well managed eating establishment that would not be the correct assumption. I traveled 40 to 50 times a year for my employer, and dined in plenty of eating establishments where they automatically added in 15% to 18% to the final bill and service levels were outstanding.

In fact, try going to an eating establishment with more than 6 or 8 individuals in your party and the gratuity ranging from 12% to 18% is automatically added to the final check.

I am not advocating for automatically adding the tip to the total cost, however to suggest it would result in the demise in the eating establishment or a decline in service levels is an unfounded generalization.

[jhmulkey]

I hate it. I would rather pay more up front at restaurants (and wherever else tips are expected) than have to worry about figuring out the tip.

[Wengr]

It's interesting how opinions can be so strong for something that is optional. Options are a good thing imo.

[jhmulkey]

Originally Posted by Wengr

It's interesting how opinions can be so strong for something that is optional. Options are a good thing imo.

Tipping is legally optional, but it's pretty much an unstated law of society where tipping is customary that you need to leave a tip. So you don't really have much of an option if you don't want to be known as "that jerk [usually a stronger word would be used] that doesn't leave tips."

[Wengr]

Originally Posted by jhmulkey

Tipping is legally optional, but it's pretty much an unstated law of society where tipping is customary that you need to leave a tip. So you don't really have much of an option if you don't want to be known as "that jerk [usually a stronger word would be used] that doesn't leave tips."

I would disagree. Imo tipping is a response to good service. If I'm not getting good service I'll go elsewhere. Options again, unless of course you're that guy stuck with no transportation in a one restaurant town.