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Old 03-16-2012, 09:16 AM
12tribes 12tribes is offline
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Question Can you help a 'Travis-Picking' newbie?

Hello,
Been playing acoustic/electric guitar for many years, but just started 'Travis-Picking' about 2 weeks ago.

Loving it, but before I start building too many habits…I want to lockdown the fingerpicking technique.

Right now, I'm focusing on learning these 2 things…
1. 'Dust In The Wind' - loved this tune from my younger days, and the chording seems easy enough. Making some headway here.

2. Following exercise #12 from this link: http://www.guitarhabits.com/16-legen...king-patterns/

So…my main question is…

Which fingers should I use? Travis was a thumb + index player. Then I found some Tommy Emmanuel videos, and it looks like he's using all fingers except pinky. I'm leaning towards Tommy's technique.

The second question is…

Is it vitally important to 'glue' a finger to the body for reference? It really seems to help me lock into position, but I don't want to be limiting myself unnecessarily.

Really appreciate any suggestions or advice.

Craig
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Old 03-16-2012, 11:29 AM
stanron stanron is offline
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Both your questions lead into disputed water. Neither has a single undisputed answer. My preference is to pick with thumb and 3 fingers. I no longer rest any part of my hand on the front of the guitar although I used to.

Thumb and 3 fingers because I can and it opens options which would otherwise be closed.

Not resting hand on front in order to maximise sound production.

The counter arguments point to how good Merle Travis sounds with thumb and 1 finger and a resting hand improves accuracy.

Both good arguments. You choose. You can always change your mind later.
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Old 03-16-2012, 11:38 AM
12tribes 12tribes is offline
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Thanks stanron

I tried the thumb/index and I could tell I'd make a lot progress quickly with it.

Interesting you mention not resting hand on body. I tried it for a while and really struggled with accuracy.

"you can always change your mind later". True, but at 43 with a wife and 3 young 'uns, I don't have much time to double-back on technique. Time seems more precious lately.

Besides Tommy Emmanuel, can you recommend a couple other 'modern' fingerpickers that would be good to emulate?

Thanks again,
Craig
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Old 03-16-2012, 12:10 PM
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12tribes: There's no easy answer but maybe this will help:

1. There's no competition about how many fingers you should use.

2. The majority of fingerstyles handed down (I'm not saying all) and this includes Carter Family style were derived from thumb/index finger only African American banjo styles and guitar fingerstyles.

3. In the context of your question and on your own terms (not recommending Leo Kottke for example) and outside of Tommy Emmanuel, there are really no "modern" fingerstyle players I would recommend and by "modern you mean contemporary with 1 exception: Craig Ventresco who plays hybrid with a pick and ring finger, not so much to emulate (good luck when you see his vids, LOL) but to realize how much you CAN do with just a 2 finger reference. Folks like Grossman and Miller are indeed very good, but forever grateful to MJH, Rev. Gary Davis.

4. Though often the place where folks start, I do not recommend Mississippi John Hurt (thumb plus 3 fingers) but maybe even someone like Mance Lipscombe.

5. Do whatever you want with you're pinky. That planting your pinky thing did very little to "limit" guitarists...from whom almost everyone has learned.

The only 2 habits you should avoid from the beginning: playing too fast and playing too soft.

And so tossing out a lot of 2 finger bravado here...but nail down Carter Family really FIRST!!!

BTW I started out with thumb 3 fingers long ago and wish I'd trimmed it down much sooner...a much more "popular" sound IMO...and you can even do ragtime stuff that way...

Another BTW Merle Travis played using electric guitar strings nickle wounds. You don't have to use them but even 80/20's starting out can make things easier in trems of string tension amd don't be afraid of 80/20 mediums set up right...

Last edited by Guest 429; 03-16-2012 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 03-16-2012, 12:54 PM
shawlie shawlie is offline
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If you already play guitar, no need to rest your pinky if you haven't done it so far, I don't think. I've been doing it for 25 years - and would have a lot of trouble playing without doing it (I find it impossible to un-learn). It just felt comfortable to me, do what feels good for you.

Fingers - really depends on the music. Hundreds of songs you could do with thumb and two, hundreds where a third finger would be handier. I use thumb and two, but play simple stuff. And starting out simple, teaching myself - I just never really put my third finger to use, never forced myself to learn to use it. Might do it different, if I knew what I know now...

Hurt's a lot of fun, though, I think (and the videos/pictures Ive seen of him, looks to me like he uses thumb and two fingers, resting both third and pinky on the guitar... but might be wrong). Eric Lugosch has a great site with a mix of styles for beginners - might find some stuff in there you really like, and help you discover other players you want to try out.

Good luck, fun style to play.
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Old 03-16-2012, 12:56 PM
unimogbert unimogbert is offline
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:06 PM
12tribes 12tribes is offline
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Thanks folks for all the great input!

Regarding the pinky on the body thing. When I learned 'very' basic fingerpicking in my youth, the teacher instructed me to plant the pinky on the body…and that's stuck with me for years. I've seen flamenco and classical techniques that don't do that, which had me a bit concerned.

I also had a thumb pick in my case which I never used before and THAT's been interesting. After about 15 minutes though, it started to come together a bit. Obviously, all this is going to take some time, but I have to unlearn a couple old habits. Fortunately, my thumb has always been somewhat detached rhythmically…and that seems to be the most important first step for 'Travis-Style'.

I'm primarily an electric guitar player, and I've noodled with some 'chicken-picking' stuff as well.

I truly appreciate all the comments and suggestions!

Craig
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:34 PM
Kerbie Kerbie is offline
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You've already gotten great advice from everybody, but for whatever this is worth... I took a fingerstyle class with a former Winfield champion last summer who taught Travis picking with thumb and two fingers. And I believe Mark Hanson also teaches the same way. I use thumb and 3 fingers on almost all other styles of fingerpicking because that seems to come more naturally to me.

It has always been my understanding that the true classical die-hards preferred the pinky to not be anchored to the top, but that seems to me to really be a matter of personal habit.
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:29 PM
stanron stanron is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tribes View Post
Thanks folks for all the great input!

Regarding the pinky on the body thing. When I learned 'very' basic fingerpicking in my youth, the teacher instructed me to plant the pinky on the body…and that's stuck with me for years. I've seen flamenco and classical techniques that don't do that, which had me a bit concerned.

I also had a thumb pick in my case which I never used before and THAT's been interesting. After about 15 minutes though, it started to come together a bit. Obviously, all this is going to take some time, but I have to unlearn a couple old habits. Fortunately, my thumb has always been somewhat detached rhythmically…and that seems to be the most important first step for 'Travis-Style'.

I'm primarily an electric guitar player, and I've noodled with some 'chicken-picking' stuff as well.

I truly appreciate all the comments and suggestions!

Craig
I never rested my little finger on the soundboard. I rested the heel of my Thumb behind the saddle on the bass side. This did the same job of keeping the hand still and making picking more accurate. After a while off acoustic guitar playing I decided to review my technique. I needed to find a way of keeping my picking hand still without touching the front.

The usual position involves resting the upper arm on the side of the guitar. The arm can pivot at the elbow and the wrist and this makes picking the correct string more difficult. It seemed to me that if I could take movement from the elbow out of the equation, accuracy would improve. I think I've succeeded.

I've adopted a standing position with a shortish strap, from end button to heel, which leaves the guitar in very much the same position as used by classical guitarists. Neck at 45 degrees and the fretting hand feels very comfortable. I rest my picking forearm on the edge of the guitar where it leads into the waist so that there is little more than 2" of forearm between the guitar and my wrist. In this position My hand is more or less over the soundhole and accuracy is not a problem.

The down sides of this position are the sharpness of the guitar side against a vulnerable part of my arm (solved with a robust leather wrist strap) and not being able to see either hand without some bending or stretching.

As to recommending modern guitarists, I'm a bit out of touch with what is happening today but from the past;

Davy Graham, Bert Jansch, Nic Jones and Martin Carthy come first to mind.

Last edited by stanron; 03-16-2012 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:24 PM
jseth jseth is offline
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I worked REALLY hard to learn how to Travis pick, back in the 60's... got pretty good with it, but ditched my thumbpick in the 70's and began to hold my flatpick (thumb/first finger) and use the other fingers to finger pick... the pinky, not so much...

It was hard and weird, at first, to even approximate my old 'Travis-style" stuff, but I have kept after it, with a couple good results... first is, I CAN play Angie (Davey Graham) with this method!!!

The second effect has been that now I just use "the feel" of Travis picking, whether I'm actually alternating the bass line or not... I like to play some 3 and 4 note more jazz-y inversions, as well as 3rds and 6ths that allow a drone bass string to ring out, sympathetically...

If you use a flat-pick, I would recommend starting with this method; I wish I had! If you don't want to use a flat-pick, or any sort of pick, or ALL fingerpicks, it's okay! Just my own experience talking here...

play on..............................>

John
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Old 03-17-2012, 04:21 AM
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Today it's much easier than years ago to learn all that...go on youtube. There are plenty of videos which will help you get started on all that stuff.
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Old 03-17-2012, 06:31 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Just to stack my $0.02 on top of the above...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tribes View Post
Right now, I'm focusing on learning these 2 things…
1. 'Dust In The Wind' - loved this tune from my younger days, and the chording seems easy enough. Making some headway here.

2. Following exercise #12 from this link: http://www.guitarhabits.com/16-legen...king-patterns/

So…my main question is…

Which fingers should I use? Travis was a thumb + index player. Then I found some Tommy Emmanuel videos, and it looks like he's using all fingers except pinky. I'm leaning towards Tommy's technique.
"Dust in the Wind" is a simple enough pattern which can be played with thumb and one finger - doesn't have to be index (I would use middle) - or a couple of fingers at most.
Just do what feels most comfortable, but look into exercises which use all 3 fingers (except pinky), which is a classical standard.
Eg, if you ever have to play a chord - and you don't want to strum - you'll be using thumb and 3 fingers together (assuming you need no more than 4 notes). Larger chords (classically) require "rasgueado" techniques, and Travis sometimes did a kind of sweep picking with his thumb.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tribes View Post
The second question is…

Is it vitally important to 'glue' a finger to the body for reference? It really seems to help me lock into position, but I don't want to be limiting myself unnecessarily.
Travis himself generally rested his other 3 fingers on the scratchplate, but I never rest a finger anywhere, I find it too limiting - and I find it actually makes picking more awkward (although that's probably just because I'm not used to it). But I do sometimes rest my wrist on the bridge, or near the bridge. This is usually when I want a more aggressive attack, because I can get under the strings more - and I can also damp the bass strings if I want (a classic blues/Travis trick).
Other times, my hand is free, although the forearm rests on the guitar of course.

Eg, in classical technique, the hand is free, with the wrist arched fairly high over the guitar, and fingers coming down fairly straight on to the strings. You learn position as a beginner by anchoring the thumb on the bass string while picking with fingers only. When picking with thumb alone, you can then anchor the fingers on the top string(s). This allows you to play without looking at your right hand, because you can feel where the strings are. When you eventually pick with both thumb and fingers, the hand stays fixed in more or less the same position (unanchored); ie it doesn't move while you pick, only the fingers move. Of course, you can move the hand to different positions along the strings for different tones.
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Old 03-23-2012, 09:23 AM
DeliciousBass DeliciousBass is offline
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Default Perspective from another recent newbie...

I have been playing acoustic guitar, all self taught from books, for 3 years, 1 year of classical, and 2 years of alternating bass fingerstyle "travis-picking." So my learning experience through all of this is still relatively fresh in my mind.

Learning classical first, I use a self-taught classical right hand position, and I dont use finger picks or a thumb pick, but I primarily used only middle finger and thumb. I started using index later on when one finger wasnt cutting it. It wasnt until later on into my travis picking endeavor, that I started employing my ring finger. I still use my middle finger primarily. It sounds better on the strings due to nail shape (another story).

So, this is a perspective from beginner, but also one from an, admittedly self taught and minimal, classical background.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tribes View Post
Which fingers should I use?
The more the better, right? Actually, Now that I use all 3, I find that using more fingers is easier. I ofter wonder how on earth Merl Travis played cannonball rag with only thumb and index (lightning index finger).
IMO, if you are using more fingers, you have access to more, richer, complex picking patterns. It also allows you to move your hand less, which helps with position. Using more fingers also allows you play multiple notes at a time in addition to the bass notes. I think Merl did this with index only by raking more than one string with his index, or thumb sometimes. But this is hard. Plucking with idividual fingers allows for more control, and excluding intermediate strings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tribes View Post
Is it vitally important to 'glue' a finger to the body for reference?
I say only do it if it helps. I use classical hand position, so I dont do this exactly. I do however rest my finger tips on strings occasionally, to help with position, and to mute strings from ringing. This is probably bad form - but it helps me play.


I have some regrets about my self taught hand position habits. The biggest one is that I cannot mute bass strings for that chet-atkins sound. I cant seem to be able to "figure out" the traditional steel-string fingerstyle hand position where the wrist is arched back and the arm flat against the face of the guitar. Never could get the hang of a traditional thumb pick - though I try every once in a while - usually after I have broken my thumb nail. I eventually caved, and bought "Alaska" thumb picks, which I can use in classical position.
I had actually at one point fasioned, from a small foam block, a thingy to slide over the base of the bass strings to mute them, just to see how it would work out (eh.. ok... but I never used it, so must not have sounded that great... and it felt an awful lot like cheating).

Stick with it! I have found that leaning fingerstyle is a very rewarding experience!
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Old 03-23-2012, 09:38 AM
12tribes 12tribes is offline
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Hey folks...quick update.

1. I'm making progress using all fingers (except pinky). Using the ring finger throws off my location a bit, but I'm struggling through it and making headway.

2. I'm starting to dig the thumbpick sound/feel. That thing was in my guitar case for probably 10 years before I 'really' started using it. Wishing I didn't wait so long. Oh well.

3. Something weird here. I cannot look at my plucking hand! It completely throws me off. I can stare at a chart on my computer or on my stand, but if I look down at my finger-picking, my rhythm and location goes all wonky. Not sure if it makes any difference, but I'm a lefty (play right-handed).

Thanks again for all the personal insights. I've read them all and am internalizing them. Sure, what works for one person may not work for another, but I think it's great hearing all the little details that go into this wonderful technique. It's given me many ideas!
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:15 AM
MisterZeus MisterZeus is offline
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I am in my third year as an adult guitar student. Never played a lick before my lessons started, although thirty years ago I spent twelve months struggling with the 5-string banjo.

Mostly my guitar lesson have focused on finger style and my instructor started me with what we call “dumbed-down" versions of:
Freight Train
Blackbird
You Are My Sunshine

We have added:
My Creole Belle
Oh Papa
Helplessly Hoping

I have also made forays into a couple of strumming songs, a couple of flat picking songs and playing through the Circle of Fifth…just so you don’t think that after two full years I am only playing 6 songs (Although that may be more true than I’d like to think!).
I have also started and abandoned several songs as well, in each of the styles, for one reason or another.

Recently I added the Stefan Grossman's DVD set “Finger Picking Guitar Techniques” to my weekly local lesson and my instructor has been working with both his own material and the material in these DVDs.

It’s really a winning combination and allows me to stay focused during the summer months when my instructor (who teaches a lot of kids) stops giving lessons for the summer when school is out.
I have no doubt that many folks could learn entirely through the Stefan Grossman DVDs.

All this to say: Try not to look at your “plunking” hand at all. Take your time, go (real, real) slow (try adding a metronome) and let the muscle memory work for you…and practice, practice, practice...slow, slow, slow.
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